Is center axis relock a viable technique for gas blowback guns.

[XOIIO]

Hey all, so I don't even know what sort of fields we have here or if we have any cqb stuff, but the center axis relock technique seems like it would be very useful, and is close to how I naturally want to hold the gun at a closer range. (or with one hand, I tend to instinctively give it a bit of an angle, maybe 10 or 15 degrees towards my center)

Now, the center action relock position is a more extreme angle, in the 40 to 45 degree range I'd say, here's an image of it.



My question is, since these guns have propane/green gas in the magazine, is this angle safe for them? I know you don't want to go around shooting them sideways, that would just be asking for trouble, but I'm curious if the gun will continue to operate properly and not vent liquid propane/green gas out when at this sort of an angle.

[ThunderCactus]

good way to hit yourself in the face with the slide if you're not careful.
But yeah, can be done on most guns. If you go too steep on the angel, you'll get a face full of propane though.

[XOIIO]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

good way to hit yourself in the face with the slide if you're not careful.
But yeah, can be done on most guns. If you go too steep on the angel, you'll get a face full of propane though.

Lol, that would definitely be a possibility, and funny. I just wasn't sure how steel an airsoft gun can be before the propane will end up hitting the valve.

I bet you could modify a magazine for extreme angles if you had a way of welding a bit of metal in, so that you could angle it one way or the other to an extreme and have a sort of baffle to stop the liquid from reaching the valve.

[Drake]

It's possible to shoot the gun sideways (or even greater angle) you just get more gas spraying out as liquid reaches the valve. Once upon a time, Western Arms even introduced mags with a sort of anti-siphon system (NLS) -- most commonly found in R-Type guns/mags -- that allowed you to shoot the gun at any angle without liquid getting to the valve.

Point in case, the more critical problem you'll encounter when shooting at angles is with hopup, as the BB will start curving "upward" ("up" as defined by your hopup being the top axis of your barrel) at a certain range, resulting in your shots taking off sideways.

So minimal hopup and whatever that entails.

[XOIIO]

Yeah, gave it a quick try and got sprayed in the face when I went a bit too steep but my mag might have had too much liquid in it, I've been having trouble filling them right since my room is around 16 or 17 degrees, I've been laying on the green gas bottle to warm it and letting my magazine chill down, sometimes in the window. I got 3 and a half magazines out of the one fill once but the first four or five shots blew green gas out and the bb's just sort of rolled out of the gun, I think it kicked it back too soon and so it had no power lol.

I really like the position though, I'm not really even aiming with the sight, it's just instinctual, and you can pivot on the spot much faster. I need to make/get some big people shaped targets and set them up in the garage while I still have it.

Not sure if there's one of those close quarters gun ranges around here but I only have the one magazine right now anyways so that wouldn't really be worth the money. (40 bucks a magazine was a little too much for me to be able to spend right now lol, ideally I would have two spares)

[XOIIO]

What I really need as well is a holster, I mean sure I can practice with my hand and gun down at my side but it's just not the same, I'd need something that would take the gun with a supressor for the longer barrel I have though (need to take some glamor shots at some point but my sleep is flipped as you might be able to tell lol), and I'm not sure if it will work but I want to stick a red dot sight on instead of the iron sights, though novak sights are nice, I just want an rds.

Also probably room for a laser/flashlight or something, but if I get good at instinct shooting I wouldn't really need it.

[Drake]

If you're going to shoot at an angle, fill much less gas in your mag. if you're getting 3 mags out of a fill you can afford to fill it a lot less.

With less liquid in the mag, even at a 70-80 degree angle there's less chance it'll reach the valve since it will pool at the bottom end of the angle.

[XOIIO]

Originally Posted by Drake

If you're going to shoot at an angle, fill much less gas in your mag. if you're getting 3 mags out of a fill you can afford to fill it a lot less.

With less liquid in the mag, even at a 70-80 degree angle there's less chance it'll reach the valve since it will pool at the bottom end of the angle.

Yeah, this round I tried I only got a couple mags work, then it ran out on the first shot of the first one, once I have more than one mag a single mags worth is plenty, but for now being able to load in more bbs and pick off right away is nice.

I don't know what we have for airsoft here, I know that they do rent guns, or at least one guy does but if I had the scratch I'd love to get three or four spare magazines and use my pistol as my primary, I'd like to get a gas blowback scar h but that's going to be a good 480 bucks lol.

I need to get age verified by our local guy, probably need to meet with him to get into the facebook group too, so not sure if there even is a cqb arena here.

I'd also need to get some gear as well, and see if dark bb's will work in my chrono or not, need to see if I can grab a handfull off someone locally when I get in that facebook group as the extended barrel might be too much for cqb.

Bleh, lots of plans, and not lots of money to do them with, that's my usual situation lol. Maybe there are some second hand we magazines in the classifieds that would be worth a shot.

[Sputmilk]

Hehe. I remember looking at the CAR system a while back. Good for checking corners but that's about it. It's really funny watching some people use it on youtube. It's more of a real steel thing to help deal with recoil.

[XOIIO]

Originally Posted by Sputmilk

Hehe. I remember looking at the CAR system a while back. Good for checking corners but that's about it. It's really funny watching some people use it on youtube. It's more of a real steel thing to help deal with recoil.

Yeah, as I mentioned though it does feel a lot snappier for pivoting, I roughly set up some random objects as targets on either side and in front of me, and it felt a lot more responsive than arms out.

For longer shots you definitely would want to switch to a more conventional stance especially since we have hop-up to deal with, I don't think it would do too well at 100ft

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Sputmilk

Hehe. I remember looking at the CAR system a while back. Good for checking corners but that's about it. It's really funny watching some people use it on youtube. It's more of a real steel thing to help deal with recoil.

CAR has its uses (mostly for confined spaces/crowds), but a lot of people in videos aren't doing it properly, instead performing a sort of "Modified Gangsta" grip. Check out the original videos by Paul Castle.

That being said, I find it uncomfortable and it becomes even worse if you have any kind of bulky armor/carrier/rig on (which is how most of us run, airsofters running a "slick" setup are a tiny minority). In the real world it probably also goes against some dogma about presenting armor rather sides to the threat.

[Okawesome]

As I understand, CAR is mainly about weapon retention and control not absolute accuracy or pure combat effectiveness. At 3-4 feet away from your target it's really hard to miss anyway. As the target gets farther away, CAR shifts stance to be extended and more like a traditional pistol hold.


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[Cliffradical]

I actually have to argue that it is pretty easy to miss at 3-4 feet away.
Using handguns effectively is really hard.

For 'real life' practical purposes, a hit to an extremity is just not good enough and can invite all sorts of problems. For our purposes in airsoft, placing hits where you want them (where an opponent will feel or hear them best, putting them on an IPSC style target) is very important.

CAR (if actually practiced) gives the user more control over where shots land in an extreme CQ environment, and that's good. It's an extremely narrowly useful tool, but one which I'd rather have than not.

Practice it, play around with it. The benefit of airsoft is that you can try things like this without damage to anything other than ones ego.

[Okawesome]

I guess that's true - yes easy to miss even that far away even with training. But it looks to me like CAR stances and the whole system aren't really meant for shooting at distance...Maybe across the room of a house or something at max.

Interesting point about shooting a person so that the hit is obvious. I never thought about that. Thanks for the tip! You have decreased my noob level.


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