Safety

[Gato]

In the safe zone it's mag out, chamber cleared.

Out on the feild I have the weapon cocked, safety on. All you guys sayng you forget to take the safety off need to get your shit in order and develop some muscle memory on the use of your weapon

[Dimitri]

I like what my firearms instructor told me many years ago. He was former British Royal Marine. He drilled it into us that all guns are loaded, a round in the chamber and that there is no mechanical safety on the gun. As such, only time the gun is "safe" is while its still in my hands after I removed the magazine, cycled the action, locked the bolt to the rear and visually inspected the barrel and action for ammunition. The moment I set that gun down, its loaded again, and must be reinspected start to finish.

So long story short, I've never used a mechanical safety on a firearm. If your in the middle of a day of hunting, or your in the middle of a paintball or airsoft match, your safety doesn't exist. The moment you leave the hunting area, paintball field etc, magazines/hoppers out and safety on but other then that the safety doesn't exist.

Dimitri

[Ninja_En_Short]

Err... If you handle a gun with safety I seriously hope you're using it. Even when I finish shooting I always remove mag and cycle the bolt carrier to make sure it's empty then I it's a press on trigger (I use a HK417).
I "drill" in my trainees that a gun is always to be considered loaded and should always be on safe until you intend to shoot. I saw enough accident to kick the ass of whatever dork who doesn't use it. Especially when I'm the one held responsible.

I apply the same rule on my GBBR, trigger pull is a lot shorter then on AEG, the more the reason to use it, even on my sidearm.

[Danke]

I think the guy ahead of you is trying to say is the safety is not a reliable way to make sure the weapon does not fire. The only safety is the shooter maintaining control of the weapon.

You have to be aware of where the muzzle is 100% of the time and not casually sweep someone because "it's on safe".

Those people shot by malfunctioning Remington rifles would be alive and unhurt if the person with the rifle had paid attention to this rule.

[Dimitri]

Originally Posted by Ninja_En_Short

then I it's a press on trigger (I use a HK417).

Press the trigger? You just made a very unsafe move. Cause at the end of the day, you are assuming that the chamber is empty, cause the moment you can't visually inspect the chamber you don't know if its loaded or not. Your assumption that you did everything right is the only thing that "proves" that the rifle was empty.

Which is why firearm companies have made plastic "flags" for years for the bolts of rifles that can be inserted to prove that there is no round in the chamber, and be still visible from the outside of the rifle. And why they are mandatory at many ranges and especially shooting competitions.

Originally Posted by Danke

I think the guy ahead of you is trying to say is the safety is not a reliable way to make sure the weapon does not fire. The only safety is the shooter maintaining control of the weapon.

Exactly. Muzzle control, treating the firearm as its loaded and ready to shoot all the time, and common sense is what is the only reliable way to make sure it will not fire and kill someone by "accident", but at the end of the day there are no accidents, just negligence of the user causing death. Which is a crime by the way.

Take the M1 Garand, M14, and the civilian models the SAI M1A and the Norinco M305/M14S, they have a very reliable mechanical safety, except for the fact its activated in the trigger guard. Which makes the possibility of accidentally hitting the trigger possible. Other guns, say the Mauser actions with its rear of the bolt 2 and 3 position safeties have been known to slip the firing pin forward just enough that the round gets fired.

Either way, assuming a mechanical safety will work, is like assuming your brand new car will last past the 3 year warranty. It would be nice if both were true, but that is not always the case.

Dimitri

[Ninja_En_Short]

For the HK417 thing few word before "make sure it's empty", I'm not mad enough to press trigger without verifying that. It's merely that I don't like having the hammer cocked for storage/transport.

I know the safety is not 100% sure thing, especially if the guy does not watch the wear on the trigger assembly. Once saw a guy in semi, shot the first round, the entire mag got depleted because of old components... hopefully we were on shooting range and not walking or whatever.
Yet the safety is here so "better safe then sorry".

[grantmac]

Originally Posted by Dimitri

Press the trigger? You just made a very unsafe move. Cause at the end of the day, you are assuming that the chamber is empty, cause the moment you can't visually inspect the chamber you don't know if its loaded or not. Your assumption that you did everything right is the only thing that "proves" that the rifle was empty.
Dimitri

Actually what he did is the golden standard of firearms safety across most modern shooting competitions and militaries.
"Show clear and hammer down" is the only way to ensure the firearm is clear and not cocked.
If you clear a chamber visually or by feel then you know its clear, if you are uncertain at all then you clear it again (the cycle twice and look rule).

This is a big boy rule and as such is not suitable for everyone. If you are uncomfortable dropping the hammer on a chamber you have cleared then it isn't suitable for you, which doesn't make it unsafe for everyone.

-Grant

[Danke]

Easing springs is pretty much a flat out rule for any firearm. Sometimes you'll remove parts before doing so but it's not a new thing.

[Dimitri]

Originally Posted by grantmac

Actually what he did is the golden standard of firearms safety across most modern shooting competitions and militaries.
"Show clear and hammer down" is the only way to ensure the firearm is clear and not cocked.

Except RO's get edgy cause then they got to trust you unloaded the firearm. But a open and visible bolt or a chamber flag can show all the rifles being cleared. The DCRA requires a chamber flag for service rifle as does most others hosting competitions. Also the same rule for the Canadian Forces and the international service condition competitions.

Making Rifles Safe: Rule 10.7 refers to the process of
checking for rifle safety at the end of a shoot. The process will
now require the bolt to be removed so the register keeper can
inspect. The bolt can be left out of the rifle OR a chamber flag
inserted or, preferably, both. This is the ICFRA rule. The
procedure of various ranges may be more or less complex but at
the CFRC this will be the process followed AND the RO will also
inspect the chamber to confirm safety.

Which is also for F-Class around these parts.

Danke,

Mechanically, a spring doesn't know when it is compressed or extended. Your average spring is actually always under compression, due to the fact till a preload is applied to the spring it is not consistent. Due to the varying extended lengths every time it completely extends.

None the less back to my point. Mechanically a spring fatigues due to cycling not compression unless its compression is over 50% and no design pushes that limit as permanent failure of the material occurs the first time.

Dimitri

[Danke]

The smaller the spring, the more it sacks out under load. It's the old physics joke personified. "I know it works in reality but how does it work in theory".

[BoGrain]

my mp40 does not have a safety persay (with trigger control, you can fire in semi while being in auto)

So my mp40 is always in auto, in the safe zone - I simply remove the mag and fire in semi to remove the last BB lodged in the barrel before entering the safe zone.

[grantmac]

Originally Posted by Dimitri

Except RO's get edgy cause then they got to trust you unloaded the firearm. But a open and visible bolt or a chamber flag can show all the rifles being cleared. The DCRA requires a chamber flag for service rifle as does most others hosting competitions. Also the same rule for the Canadian Forces and the international service condition competitions.

Which is also for F-Class around these parts.

Dimitri

Valid for square range use only. You won't see an empty chamber indicator in an action shooting sport or operational environment.
I shoot silhouette, chamber flags are required and as such I use one. Square range with square range rules, plus going striker forward with some rimfires is poor form. Outside of that competition they are a nuisance and nothing more.

No need for an RO to get edgy, the line officers watch the shooters clear their weapons before the line goes green. Movement on the range is allowed and all weapons are handled as though loaded.

Its like a safety/FCS. It doesn't allow you to handle the weapon in any way differently, but it creates an additional mechanical roadblock to an ND in event of missed-footing or loss of balance.
Plus you ensured it was operational when you picked-up your weapon and did a function check, right? For what I do I damn well better be confident that my weapon will not fire in the safe position.

-Grant