Low end guns are...popular?

[HackD]

Working on my own AEG's just feeds into my 20+ years of working on motorcycles, and disassembling other random mechanical things that were carelessly left out around me, from about 5 years of age onwards.

It's more about the intimidation factor, than the difficulty factor. It only took one gun-doc bill to get me to break open the gearbox on my own. It really wasn't that difficult, even the first time around.

You have to be focused, be able to do research on anything that you are unfamiliar with, observant on how things go together, and basicaly attentive to detail.. the rest comes with time and perhaps a mechanical fuck up or two. Once you get that out of the way, you are well on the way to being competent with the mechanics of these gear-boxes.

It ain't rocket science, folks. Everyone's a beginner once, but it is the ones that stick with it, that become competent, even experts - at anything.

[iKliiu]

The internet really helps these days for techs too. If you are a beginner, you can easily go to Youtube and learn the basics of gearboxes. Also, there are disassembly tutorials for guns as well, including full step to step processes for getting to the gearbox.

[THe_Silencer]

Originally Posted by MaciekA

Dude, I hugely respect a your posts on this forum, but with the highest level of all due respect and no offense intended, I have to say the above view is completely wrong.

It's my belief that this perception comes from partially from the fact that a huge number of people don't have any clue about AoE, sorbothane, and MOSFETs, but mostly from the fact that our community inexplicably clings to inaccurate myths: chief among them that gearboxes have souls that escape as soon as you fiddle with them... that there's some kind of magic involved in imparting spin on a BB that only certain people and/or companies can achieve... that there's more to the durability of gears than simple metallurgy and knowing where to buy your shit... etc.

Guys, it's under two dozen electro-mechanical parts and they're dead easy to understand.

The idea that it is extremely difficult to build durable AEGs that can fire ~30rps at 400fps weekend after weekend, through the dead of winter, with high-powered LiPos, good distances and decent accuracy and so on is just flat out inaccurate and unfair to knobs like me who are building them and doing just fine. It takes a few tries to get it right but it's not hard, in fact, it's fun and part of the whole airsoft experience. We owe it to new players and tinkerers alike to tell them the truth and kill these myths. This shit is pretty easy, and all it takes to build a solid tier 1 AEG is some basic *repeatable* skills, a reasonable budget, and a build->test/observe feedback loop to build a solid.

Seriously, take it from me -- I am the ultimate idiot in sheep's clothing. The fact that there are airsoft doctors on here with many years of experience who maintain this bizarre folklore of superior japanese machines that can't be matched with a few simple upgrades and techniques is more an unfortunate product of ingrained thinking and a lack of effort to use the Net and actually check out what other people are up to outside of our neighborhood than it is a law of the universe. Go out and get more data, and you will come to see the truth. This is why I always tell people who doubt this idea to go out there on the net or talk to players in other bigger player communities (USA, EU, etc) to see what those people are up to and what extremes they're pushing and what truths they've discovered by experimenting at the edge, en masse. We've got our heads in the sand (or snow) over here.

Like I said before, if I can do it, anyone can do it, cause I'm an idiot with limited time and resources.

There's no doubt about it, Systema creates impeccable machines of supreme beauty (that planetary gear is one of the wonders of the airsoft world), but practical ASC readers would be better served with helpful pointers on how to install R-Hops, choose the right piston, motor, and gears, and how to firm up their compression -- techniques that will take ALL AEGs far beyond stock and into tier 1 territory... from low-end CYMAs and JGs, to KAs and G&Ps and VFCs. If you start with a CYMA, power to ya.

What I admire about your posts is that despite the fact that you haven't been around the longest on the forums, your open mindedness and objectivity is a breath of fresh air on this forum, while many of the veteran members are still ingrained in the old ways. There was a time when you'd get laughed at for recommending SHS gears and Element motors despite the fact that many high performance builds use such parts.

While I don't agree that anyone can work on a mechbox, I do agree that getting an aeg to perform better than a PTW is not that hard nor is it that expensive. Sure a $1600 PTW will perform great OOTB but it's only a matter of time before the motor fails and you have to spend $200+ on those special rewound motors. Amazing aeg motors can be had for around $25 and this motor issue alone is why I don't subscribe to to cult of PTW, despite their fancy electronics and accurate scale.

Thus, as long as there are guys that like to tinker and tune their aegs, "low end" guns will ALWAYS be popular since the potential for upgrades is practically endless.

[Swattiger]

The PTW is not only about the internals. It also has a very very high quality externals which is very close to real steel.

So it is a "whole" package which is much superior.

[lurkingknight]

lol, if I had some spare cash I would put DSG and rhop a lancer m4 to demonstrate what you can do... but alas, I don't have about 200 to spare. The riot dsg gearset would be worth more than the gun lol.

A whole package is only as good as its weakest link. Most people probably don't need a ptw or care that a ptw is as close to real steel. Except of course, those who really need it to be a training system.

When you get shot in a game, do you care if it was a lancer or a ptw?

Probably not... you're probably thinking... "that bastard got me good."

anyways, this isn't a pissing contest about ptw vs the world.

Not everyone has the time or inclination to work on an AEG, I get it. For those there will always be gundocs who will gladly take their money and provide a good service.

For those who like to tinker and like to problem solve and push the envelope, you can buy a "pos" gun and turn it into something that will turn heads. I don't necessarily care if it's plastic either... I might if I'm not as tired at the end of the day since it doesn't weigh 10 pounds.

For the sake of gaming, all I care about is if it shoots as hard as I want it, as fast as I want it and as accurately as I want it. Ultimately it doesn't matter if it says WELL on the side of it or TM.

[ThunderCactus]

I've got no issues arguing technical detail, that's how our understanding of airsoft gets better lol

Having said what I said, the PTW certainly isn't the end all be all.
There are good PTW's, and there bad PTW's
I've shot both lol
It's EASIER to make a PTW shoot good, than it is to make an AEG shoot good.
And stock vs stock, you can't argue that the PTW isn't going to shoot better out of the box. But, you can fully upgrade an AEG and make it shoot just about as good for less than the cost of a PTW. Problem is you need the technical skill to make it happen.

My opinion on PTW's isn't biased, Mac can tell you I used to be a huge critic of PTWs LOL
But the thing that really changed my mind is joe shmoe. I can build an AEG that shoots freakin ridiculous. High ROF, excellent range and accuracy, guaranteed to last 3+ years of heavy abuse. But the guy paying me to work on his guns? Probably not. And some people just aren't mechanically inclined in the least.

PTW's have their problems like any other gun, they suffer from very expensive & flawed proprietary motors. Weak hop-up adjusters, sometimes an air nozzle may break, the stock mags are stupid expensive and very sensitive to fouling, expensive to fix, they're not water resistant out of the box, no LiPo monitoring support right on their boards, and they usually break when you javelin them into a concrete surface lol
But they have some serious advantages; the upper receiver cylinders, like ICS guns. Planetary gear mechboxes that reduce it to 1/3 normal size, once your motor is modded it's very reliable and very powerful, mosfet, optical control board, 3mm trigger pull, very solid body construction, thick walled inner barrels, a very accurate hop-up system similar to the M14's, and an air nozzle design that inherently makes full-auto fire significantly more accurate.

So do you NEED a PTW to be good? Hell no.
Does it give you an advantage on the field? Yes.
Is that advantage worth the extra $1200-$1600? Not for most people
And if you're just getting in, you're way better off getting a $200-$500 gun as opposed to dropping $2400 on a complete PTW package lol
I have noticed though, that a lot of communities that switched to PTWs just never got AEG's performing very well. Manitoba used to have a max range of like 120 feet. Once our gundocs started learning more and using better parts, and people started buying .28s, only took two years for everyone's range to get between 200-300ft

[iKliiu]

IMO, a well tuned AEG (with R-hop, computerized mosfet, torque motor, speed gears, etc) will give more advantage on the field than a PTW. The mosfet and torque, like the AWS Raptor, can bring hair trigger pulls to a standard AEG. R-hop can make a 400 FPS gun shoot about 270 feet. 13:1 gears and a torque motor can easily reach 30 RPS with a 11.1 LiPo. That's why I think a well tuned AEG is more advantageous on the field. 30 RPS with a instant trigger response and the capability to hit targets at +250 feet.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

they usually break when you javelin them into a concrete surface

I hereby demand you come play with our group if you ever head down this way, I've gotta see this javelin action.

[Swattiger]

Understand very well how the dedicated DIY airsofters can upgrade the "internals" of an AEG to make it better than PTW.

How about it's externals and the much more precise measurements e.g. a much "thinner" and close to real steel hand grip, high grade metal and plastic parts, and some other real steel features e.g. the first AEG to introduce stop the shooting when the magazine is empty, and require you to push the release button before you can shoot again after you re-load, take real steel parts with little problem ?

These features may not be important or observed by many people, but really provide some good experience for those who go for realism and serious collectors.

[THe_Silencer]

Originally Posted by Swattiger

These features may not be important or observed by many people, but really provide some good experience for those who go for realism and serious collectors.

Those that desire the most realism have already switched to GBBRs.

[Ronald Chang]

Originally Posted by THe_Silencer

Those that desire the most realism have already switched to GBBRs.

Yes. But it still does not mean low end AEG can be as good as PTW as a whole, both internally AND externally.

It is very personal, but I can say that I feel big difference when I use my PTW in games Vs the other AEG.