Low end guns are...popular?

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by Stealth

No, they sound worse than VFC.
The biggest problem with that gearset is that you can't adjust the height of the setup at all. It drops in, and that's it. Pinion gear not meshing correctly with the bevel gear? Too bad.

Agreed, they sound terrible, and there's no real way to prevent it aside from disassembling the gearset and re-shimming it within the frame structure. This is the biggest head-scratcher for me regarding the Modify Modular gearsets (anyone want my set?). They aren't self-shimming, yet often described as such.

The bottom line, hands down, is that if you want the best shimming you have to do it yourself, with normal gears that have normal shafts. Everything else sucks. It's not even hard, but it does require some finesse. The process is hugely helped with visual and audio feedback and rapid iteration. It also helps to complete your bevel gear solution and test the sound from that (with motor and trigger and battery all in) before moving on to the rest. I suspect maybe this is why we don't see ideal shimming in high end production guns; it would annihilate their margins. I could be wrong though.

edit: I suspect what we're seeing from VFC's self-shimmers is a somewhat failed attempt at achieving an ideal shim without the labour cost. Maybe they'll dump the idea. Perhaps someone could take their idea and improve on it to the point where it works, but I'm skeptical because those springs aren't very strong, and at the required tension to get an ideal shim you'd be adding unnecessary friction.

[lurkingknight]

I can't imagine they would hold under any sort of load... those gears turn at pretty high rpm... torque just lifts the buggers out of the way.

Think about it... path of least resistance.. the piston spring and rig is far heavier a pull to move than a tiny little spring on the self shimming gear. As soon as any sort of load is put on the system, stuff is going to shift before it even gets to the main spring.

[Ross]

What I believe is that the cheaper brands sell more because they are cheaper. Not everyone is willing to dish out 500 + for a stock aeg. Especially if they are first time buyers and don't even know if they will like the sport.

As for my own personal experience. I don't mind buying a cheaper brand like cyma or whatever. To me I am just paying for the exterior body quality. And sometimes a cyma ak's metal body is good enough. Most of the internals in an aeg can be upgraded pretty cheaply regardless. To me the sport is more about having fun. And a 250 dollar cyma with 50 dollar upgrades can last just as long as any of the higher end guns.

Could you imagine if the world's best car engine could fit into any junky car and was cheaper than any car itself? Everyone would own this engine and drive shitty cars. Or at least that's my theory.

[shadow_matter]

Here's a perspective from a 5+ year player and self gun tech.

Between my team and I, we've owned a good mix of brands over the years from JG/Cyma to TSD/SRC to Classic Army/Tokyo Marui. The big differnce in performance is not necessarily FPS or Mosfets but the consistency and accuracy that can be achieved through tight tolerances and better fit & finishes.

Here's a good example, I did a recent chrono reading on a stock JG and a stock Classic Army (both about 3 years old and well used). The JG had a deviation of 16fps over a 10 shot string. The Classic Army had a deviation of 4 fps over 10 shots. I have seen this same trend with other 'higher end' brands (tighter fit & finish of air seal parts & quality spring = more consistency).

There are three factors that significantly impact the decision:

1. Can you do your own upgrades/repairs? If so, fixes and upgrades can be performed relatively cheaply, marginalizing the risk and expense associated with brand reliability/performance out of box.

2. How often do you realistically expect to play? A person who games multiple times per month puts much more wear and tear on their equipment than a casual gamer (1 game per month or less). If you only expect to play 6 times a year, will you ever use a "chinese" brand to the point of failure? Possibly, but the potential is far less than with a weekend warrior.

3. What is your financial situation? How much do you have to spend and what is your personal opinion of "expensive" for a hobby? A sizable 'hobby purchase' is more substantial for someone with less disposable income and cost will most likely play a limiting factor for their next purchase.

One thing that you should absolutely NOT skimp on is the quality of battery. It is potentially the single largest thing that can negatively impact the performance of an AEG and in my experience, often neglected when people plan upgrades for their guns.

It's kind of like cars now a days. A Ford can be plenty reliable and get you from A to B. Will a German Sports Saloon out perform the Ford and feel more 'special' to you while doing it? Probably.

[iKliiu]

JG/CYMA/Dboys air leak comes from the nozzle, their piston to cylinder head seals very well. A $5 nozzle can easily fix the compression issues that comes with the "cheap" guns. While you're at it, you might as well reshim, adjust AOE and swisscheese this piston, install a MOSFET and maybe even a neodymium motor. This results in a true LiPo ready and reliable gun with amazing trigger response for much less a "high end" gun.

[JerryMcGoulBerry]

I wouldnt say those are low end guns. Chinese clones can be really good. you can either get a VFC 416 for 500$, or you can get a Dboys (VFC clone) for 200$ and spend 200$ on it and get a gun better then the VFC! and you can call it your own. a lot of aftermarket parts suck, but some can be really good. I would go with the Dboys any day of the week. stock, the VFC will be better. Not by a huge amount, but better. I personally recommend purchasing JG, CYMA and Dboys

[SuperHog]

I have a VFC and it hasn't failed once because I got rid of the auto shimming feature.

I replaced the springs that are suppose to be the auto shimming feature with a spacers then thin shims for final tuning and works great.

[ThunderCactus]

low end guns were popular purely due to price and ignorance.
When chinasoft first hit the market, it was a lot worse than it is now, and despite EVERYONE being told NOT to buy them, a ton of people did, and of course regretted it when their gun broke and nobody could/would fix it lol
Used to be the difference between a $200 kraken or a $800 G&P that needed new internals
Now it's $200 for a kraken, or $350 for a high end KA M4
Can't really argue the extra $150 for guaranteed compatibility & reliability

Problem with putting a good engine in a shit car is the same as putting a good mechbox in a shit gun. You can get it to work but it's a question of alignment. If things don't align properly you're going to have some big demon performance issues for what is now a $200 gun with a $400 mechbox

Of course, it doesn't help when a business is making you pay $800 for a gun that only cost them $300 to import lol

[Swattiger]

I have no time for DIY. So I stick to those with good reliability and fair performance right of the box. No matter it is a cheap or high end brand.

But it is very true that the high end brands have better fitting, alignment,etc which makes upgrades/maintainence have better results.

[BrendanL]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

low end guns were popular purely due to price and ignorance.
When chinasoft first hit the market, it was a lot worse than it is now, and despite EVERYONE being told NOT to buy them, a ton of people did, and of course regretted it when their gun broke and nobody could/would fix it lol
Used to be the difference between a $200 kraken or a $800 G&P that needed new internals
Now it's $200 for a kraken, or $350 for a high end KA M4
Can't really argue the extra $150 for guaranteed compatibility & reliability

I thought the KA M4 was just a good entry level gun, I didn't know it was high end? I also wouldn't say its guaranteed reliability on those.

I've had a kraken for 2 years now as a back up, a good shim job and its never failed. I hear plenty of stories like mine. I bought the kraken used from an ECO team member, so its most likely been through over 50,000 bb's. To say buying a cheaper gun is ignorance, maybe makes sense a few years ago, but today I don't agree.

[ThunderCactus]

king arms has always made really solid externals.
G&P is noted as being high end, their metal bodies are tough as nails, but their internals are hit and miss.
CA was good back when it was the only choice for a metal bodied gun, but they're not fully TM spec, and their metal bodies are crap compared to G&P.

Any AEG that is fully TM spec, is a good aeg, because you at least know it can be made to shoot good.

Buying a cheaper gun isn't ignorant. But ignoring people that have HAD cheaper guns, and advice of dozens of collective years of gunsmithing, is completely ignorant.
Like when people ask what's a good charger, then buy a $12 wall plug, and later complain their batteries won't hold a charge lol

It also doesn't help that most people pushing the low end, have only ever owned low end guns. So they're not even really aware of what they're missing.
I've worked on and seen many low end guns on the field. In terms of reliability, ease to work on, and performance, you just can't compete with brand name.

I have this same argument with AEG's vs PTW's. You can get a good AEG, fully upgraded, to perform exactly like a PTW. And even have the electronics be more reliable than a PTW's.
But it's an extremely difficult task to tweak and build that AEG to the same level as a stock PTW. And if anything should break, or go out of place, it requires a VERY skilled gunsmith to maintain and service that AEG.
Whereas you can buy a stock PTW and it kicks ass out of the box.

You can get an echo1, or ARES, or STAR, or JG, or CYMA to perform like a high end AEG. But first, you need to luck out and get one of their non-lemon guns, then you need a skilled gunsmith to upgrade, tweak, and make that thing shoot right. And then you have to keep up on your maintenance to keep it shooting right.

I've done a few LMG full upgrades, and let me tell you, my G&P has never had an internal mechbox failure in 4 years and hundreds of thousands of rounds. Always shot at proper FPS, great range and good spread.
But it's incredibly difficult to reproduce those results on a plastic STAR MK46, or a CA249, or an echo1, or especially a TOP anything.

Damn this is a long winded post, but the point is, a solid base ensures less problems in the future.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by ThunderCactus

But it's an extremely difficult task to tweak and build that AEG to the same level as a stock PTW. And if anything should break, or go out of place, it requires a VERY skilled gunsmith to maintain and service that AEG.

Dude, I hugely respect a your posts on this forum, but with the highest level of all due respect and no offense intended, I have to say the above view is completely wrong.

It's my belief that this perception comes from partially from the fact that a huge number of people don't have any clue about AoE, sorbothane, and MOSFETs, but mostly from the fact that our community inexplicably clings to inaccurate myths: chief among them that gearboxes have souls that escape as soon as you fiddle with them... that there's some kind of magic involved in imparting spin on a BB that only certain people and/or companies can achieve... that there's more to the durability of gears than simple metallurgy and knowing where to buy your shit... etc.

Guys, it's under two dozen electro-mechanical parts and they're dead easy to understand.

The idea that it is extremely difficult to build durable AEGs that can fire ~30rps at 400fps weekend after weekend, through the dead of winter, with high-powered LiPos, good distances and decent accuracy and so on is just flat out inaccurate and unfair to knobs like me who are building them and doing just fine. It takes a few tries to get it right but it's not hard, in fact, it's fun and part of the whole airsoft experience. We owe it to new players and tinkerers alike to tell them the truth and kill these myths. This shit is pretty easy, and all it takes to build a solid tier 1 AEG is some basic *repeatable* skills, a reasonable budget, and a build->test/observe feedback loop to build a solid.

Seriously, take it from me -- I am the ultimate idiot in sheep's clothing. The fact that there are airsoft doctors on here with many years of experience who maintain this bizarre folklore of superior japanese machines that can't be matched with a few simple upgrades and techniques is more an unfortunate product of ingrained thinking and a lack of effort to use the Net and actually check out what other people are up to outside of our neighborhood than it is a law of the universe. Go out and get more data, and you will come to see the truth. This is why I always tell people who doubt this idea to go out there on the net or talk to players in other bigger player communities (USA, EU, etc) to see what those people are up to and what extremes they're pushing and what truths they've discovered by experimenting at the edge, en masse. We've got our heads in the sand (or snow) over here.

Like I said before, if I can do it, anyone can do it, cause I'm an idiot with limited time and resources.

There's no doubt about it, Systema creates impeccable machines of supreme beauty (that planetary gear is one of the wonders of the airsoft world), but practical ASC readers would be better served with helpful pointers on how to install R-Hops, choose the right piston, motor, and gears, and how to firm up their compression -- techniques that will take ALL AEGs far beyond stock and into tier 1 territory... from low-end CYMAs and JGs, to KAs and G&Ps and VFCs. If you start with a CYMA, power to ya.

[m102404]

That's theoretically true...and bullsh!t at the same time.

Not all that long ago I stopped gun doc'ing. It wasn't from lack of work...mostly loss of interest. I stopped the year after about $14000 worth of rifles passed over the bench....that's parts and labour, not the cost of the guns, in a single calendar year. The hobby wasn't a hobby anymore.

It's very possible to build good setups. I do it often (less so now). But to say its possible with anyone with anything is just plain wrong. I've taught guys how to work on mechboxes...more than a couple of dozen paid me to teach them. Some of the guys pick it up without batting an eye...others are confused to this day what end of the screwdriver to hold. Some just don't get it. And that's ok, mechanical things are just not for everyone....just like I couldnt understand any of my wife's quantum mechanics stuff back in univ.

I've seen...literally... dozens of botched repairs. More than a few boxes and bags handed over with bits of guns in them and confused "help me" looks.

It is possible to make a sh!t gun like a CYMA or a dboys work really well...it just takes more work, more parts and is more fiddly, with less certainty, than it does with a solid gun to start with. And at a base level, some of their parts are just so crooked, warped or offspec that they are junk. Add to that that certainly not everyone has the aptitude, nor the will, to fiddle with the fine tuning and it's very clear that what TC posted is very true.

There's some very good gun docs out there...many who are far more skilled than I am and more than a few who rarely post here...but to blanket extend out those capabilities to everyone is plain wrong.

Not meaning to insult anyone out there....but those who can't wrench on guns know who they are.

[MaciekA]

Originally Posted by m102404

There's some very good gun docs out there...many who are far more skilled than I am and more than a few who rarely post here...but to blanket extend out those capabilities to everyone is plain wrong.

Not meaning to insult anyone out there....but those who can't wrench on guns know who they are.

Good rebuttal, and fair. I guess what awakens the "listen you guys, pick up a god damned screw driver once in a while!" in me the most is the you-can't-kill-an-idea mythic proportion of the PTW and PTW-like ideas on this forum. My sense is that we're not as empirically-driven as other airsoft communities, more insular, exposed to far smaller amounts of hardware, and therefore susceptible to slightly oddball biases and quirky misconceptions. And I think one of those misconceptions is that there's something beyond reach when it comes to high performance durable AEGs on a budget, and that the more to it part is more a product of talent/finesse/branding/foreignness rather than simple determined investment of time along with sharing data.

I'll concede that it's probably not as dead simple as I make it out to be, but I will counter argue that there are probably tons of people here who could do pretty well.

[lurkingknight]

all it takes is a bit of patience (okay.. a lot of patience in some cases) and the ability to remember righty tighty, lefty loosey, unless dealing with flash hiders, then it's anyone's guess. :P

I wouldn't consider myself a superstar in anything, much to the argument of a lot of people I know... I just spend some time and effort doing some critical thinking about the problem. Some logical trial and error and then experimentation and observation of the results. Not the result I wanted? try it again. and again... and again.

Sure, some people have inherent skill to be able to grasp a concept, or perceive a spatial problem in their mind, some do it better than others, some learn faster than others.

It's not that simple to pick up a screw driver and have at it in the gearbox.... but I am with maciek on this one.. it's not that difficult and mystic either.