Help Buying M4A1 - Systema PTW or Other Upgraded M4A1

[AoiShikaku]

So I've been under this giant debate on what my next gun should be. I ended up trying to find the best and so far people have been pointing me to a wide range of options for guns, but the Systema has been the one name over and over again that popped up in conversations with people. Obviously positive and negative about the Systema PTW.

I enjoy a good game of close quarters combat and open stretches of land where accuracy is critical. I basically would like a well rounded gun that meets those requirements, but want the best possible gun I can get for those conditions. Also since the Systema rate of fire is insanely awesome... I don't really care for it very much. I prefer semi shots only most of the times. Field FPS limits I play are 350, 400, and 450 so being able to swap out the cylinders is a bonus, but not by far. I have no problems opening up a gearbox and swap in a new spring beforehand.

After reading through the Systema problems thread it looks like I'll be needing quite a bit extra stuff on top of the purchase of the gun. So the gun alone will run around $1900 to $2200 (CAN retailer prices) and it looks like I'll have to dump in a lot for 2 extra cylinders, bunch of mags, and new motor, bolt catch spring, etc. So I'm going to guess-timate the full total at around $3000-$3500 (remember.. guessing here). Even with all the extra trimmings attached it seems that there are still a lot of problems that exist in the gun... kinda drawn away from the gun because of this.

Now $3500 is a hefty price to pay for a gun so I'm asking everyone (owners, non-owners, lovers, and haters alike)
- why would or wouldn't you choose the Systema PTW as a gun?
- Can you think of an AEG (upgraded) that you would choose over it and why?
- What makes the Systema PTW better or worse than other upgraded AEGs out there?
- If you had an unlimited amount of money what M4A1 type gun would you end up buying?


I'm just trying to gather up information now before I end up buying something that I will be disappointed with because there is something better out there and/or potentially saving me from spending $3500 on a gun that doesn't perform over the next.

[Drunk_Albertan]

To be completely honest, I don't think you will pay that much for a PTW. Retail now they go for $1800-$1900. There are full packages that will net you 6 mags, 2 cylinders and I believe 2 batterys for roughly $2300.

As for cylinders, yes, they are expensive. The option to change out fps in under 5 seconds though can't be beat. There is another alternative for much less cost here as well. The springs inside of those cylinders are also interchangeable with each other. They are quite simple and quick to change as well.

This coupled with the fact that PTW's are lipo ready, unlike most aeg's where the gears aren't ready to take the higher torque from the motor.

The only reported problem that I've heard about PTW's is the motor issues with the brushes. Aside from that, they are designed for performance out of the box with minimum maintenance.

I've had 3 aeg's. I've put as many rounds through my PTW as I have in all 3 aeg's combined. Had I known this when I began airsoft, I would have been much happier. I was a PTW hater, thought they weren't that great and over rated. Now, almost 3/4 of my team has one.

Airsoft is an investment, and this will guarantee 100% return.

[AoiShikaku]

Originally Posted by Drunk_Albertan

To be completely honest, I don't think you will pay that much for a PTW. Retail now they go for $1800-$1900. There are full packages that will net you 6 mags, 2 cylinders and I believe 2 batterys for roughly $2300.

yeah.. that was just guessing and throwing a number in the air. Good to know though I can pick it up cheaper.

Thanks for your opinion. I'm look forward to other peoples feedback before making the decision on what gun to go for. I'm basically one of those guys who would drop the cash for the best possible thing now and not have to worry about it for the next X number of years.

[Canadian Psycho]

I have a PTW and I love it, all around it is the best available gun out there in my opinion. Great ROF, the best trigger response plus with the chip boards in them no stupid half cock. Yes they are expensive, but at least it arrives in one piece performing right out of the box, unlike a build gun that might have problems.

The only issue I ran into with mine was that at Claybank 2010 during the hurricane it got completely soaked (think shower soaked) and it messed up the selector chip, but a few minutes with a tooth brush and it works great again. The Tackleberry mod will fix any motor issues as well as semi water proofing all of the chip boards and what not.

Great guns, worth every penny, would buy one again in a heartbeat.

[Eien]

In my opinion, if you have the money then get a PTW else I would get a normal AEG M4 and slap on a mosfet on it like those control units from airsoftparts, if you want a PTW like feeling.

[Karma_]

I've had a PTW for well over 2 1/2 years and the only issue I had was the motor. It was a disappointment for sure but once that got sorted out I haven't had any other issues. If you take care of it, it will take care of you. The haters don't know what they're talking about. Some can't justify the cost but that's no reason to hate it. I know of a few people who used to be outspoken against them and now own at least one and can't say enough good things about it.

If you can spend the money then there isn't a better option. It does require a big dump at first but after that you'll be happy you did it. The stock hop up is pretty weak so it's not a bad idea to get that modded (check out doubletaptactical.ca), and if the motor goes, get it fixed or replaced. Other than that, it's all you need. You won't need a backup, it has a lot less parts that a V2, and the gearbox is a tank. Plus the PTW is 1:1 scale. Have you felt the grip? Way better than an AEG.

There is no reason to hate these things other than the cost. You can be set with a PTW, 7 mags total, two cylinders aside from the red it comes with, two batteries for around $2900 all brand new. But you have options to reduce that and since these guns are pretty economical on battery usage, one could last you a day.

Good luck.

[m102404]

Originally Posted by AoiShikaku

- why would or wouldn't you choose the Systema PTW as a gun?
- Can you think of an AEG (upgraded) that you would choose over it and why?
- What makes the Systema PTW better or worse than other upgraded AEGs out there?
- If you had an unlimited amount of money what M4A1 type gun would you end up buying?

I've had dozens of AEGs over the years...I've worked on, built, repaired, tweaked and tuned dozens of AEGs. If an make/model/type came out that drew my interest I either bought it, worked on one or got to play with it extensively.

...and here's what I have now.

1. WE GBBR M4...just plain fun and works well, weather permitting (temp sensitive). Go to primary for most every game this past year.

2. Systema PTW M4...this is my go to backup gun now, used to be primary go to rifle it worked so nice. I used to have two...one as a spare just in case one died. The spare sat untouched for over a year (other one never failed) and I sold it. They are SOLID rifles...no twisty/bendy/flexy/toy like feel like other AEGs. They SOUND different too...more of a sharp PAP sound vs. and AEG's zzzzz-pop sound.

3. KA Galil....V3 AEG goodness...just plain nice gun to shoot/use. V3's are solid. It's my loaner, backup, tickle my fancy for something different.

- why would or wouldn't you choose the Systema PTW as a gun?
* once it's reliable (older electronics were not so much)...it's solid as a brick shithouse
* pure simple "no fucking around" power level swap. Swap cylinder = done. * I can tear apart most any AEG and do whatever...but they're a pain in the ass in the end. Even if you broke down a PTW to it's individual parts they're ruggedly simple.
* trigger response performance. In essence...no "mechbox wind up" delay. I stopped shooting full auto with a PTW since it's so slick that you can double/triple tap off in semi

- Can you think of an AEG (upgraded) that you would choose over it and why?
* no...in that you have to goose an AEG quite a bit to get even near the same performance (and I worked hard at trying to). NOTE...with the ASCU you can get much closer than ever before...but not quite.
* yes...in that it's just plain fun to rock a different gun sometimes (i.e. SAW/AK/etc...)

- What makes the Systema PTW better or worse than other upgraded AEGs out there?
* they are near stupid simple to work on...you've got to use your brain and know what you're doing...but it's not the monkeying around that an AEG is
* Parts are expensive (i.e. motor, electronics, cylinders, etc...)...but they're usually very rugged and have high mileage runs of solid performance
* see other points

- If you had an unlimited amount of money what M4A1 type gun would you end up buying?
* WE GBBR...great bang for buck. Other good GBBRs out there too.
* PTW...I bought one...then bought another...if this one dies I'd buy another

....so, forget the GBBRs, if I could do it all over again and started with nothing... I'd skip right to a PTW, tweak the hopup, buy 3 boxes of saber mags and clean them out, buy a good supply of BBBastard 28's (my PTW loves them), buy Gold cylinder and a M90 spring, buy a second 9.6v battery and good smart charger. Yes....it'd be pricey, but that full cost pales in comparison of going through one AEG, upgrade after another upgrade, after another AEG, etc.....

There's lots of parts that can be tweaked/tuned on a PTW and some good things to do, I've found the following to be very, very handy:
1. Tweak the hopup roller/cage/barrel setup...there's the tackleberry mod/3 cushion/etc...thing. It works wonders. Set nicely and tuned to your BBs/power level...the range and accuracy you can get is just jaw dropping stunning. And deep down it's nice to have a chuckle when you setup beside some guy with a nice bolt action and just drill the guy he's been trying over and over to hit but can't quite get the hit on.

2. Have a spare set of electronics on hand...just in case. They take minutes to swap out if needed. I waterproofed mine with "spray electrical tape" and have shot right through every rain game that I've taken it out on.

3. You DON'T have buy a separate cylinder for each power level. For everything up to Gold you can just simply buy the spring. Swapping a different spring in takes minutes and is stupid simple. I used to have 3 cylinders...I only have one now, and a bunch of different springs. I think the springs were $30/each.

4. Spare other bits...I worked on a few PTWs and built a one or two...so I ended up with extra gears, electronics, motor, etc... Haven't had to use any of it...but it's good peace of mind. Parts may be pricey but are easy to get.


The ONLY definite "DO NOT BUY" reason I can think of is...your own budget. I will tell you flat out that this game sucks if you dump every penny you have into a nice rifle and a fancy optic...but don't have good boots and the rest of stuff you need to run at a game properly. Game day with suck for you...and your fellow teammates and shooters will give you the stink eye for dropping out early.

NOTE: I stopped keeping up with this version or that...I have no idea what tweaks are pre-done to the Supermax's. I do know they take a different cylinder due to the gearing though. The ones I've looked over are sweet though.

[AoiShikaku]

Well I appreciate all your feedback and will be looking to pick up a PTW.

All your suggestions have really helped out, and gave me a better understanding of what to look for, buy and not buy. Here is what I am gathering up and tell me if it sounds about right.

- Systema PTW MAX M4A1
- PTW or Saber Mags (pushing towards the Saber mags for the cost and ABS plastic)
- a few springs for the following FPS requirements: 350, 400, and 450.
- nonconductive sealant for electronic systems "spray electrical tape"


I do have a few more follow up questions to help me get started with one.


Hop Up mod
- Double Tap is providing a hop up mod and was curous if this is the tackleberry mod or similar (email has been sent to them about this also)?

Springs Inside the Cylinder
- I heard from someone that the PTW doesn't use standard AEG springs. What kind of springs am I looking for? (a link would help out lots too... and suggestions for 350, 400, and 450 FPS)

Waterproof circut board/electronic systems
- What areas require waterproofing for hmmm raining days... or worst case scenario if I fall in a small river or ditch?

Tackleberry mod
- Now I've searched a whole lot, but have heard that he does two major things with the gun. One being the hop up adjustment (which I assume is what Double Tap is providing) and the second is something to do with the motor. For the motor mod I am pretty unfamiliar with and have no clue what is initially wrong with the motor out of the box, but can someone fill me in on this?
-What exactly do you have to do for this mod?

Batteries... LiPo vs NiCd
- I've heard of users using LiPo batteries in the PTW. Specifially the Firefox 11.1v LiPo (with a m150 or higher cylinder). How many of you would advise against going something like this?
- Winter games I would play would probably be around -5c so what would you recommend? NiCd or LiPo?

[m102404]

I don't know exactly what others do to their motors and hopups....just what I do to mine.
- adjust barrel cuts to allow a greater range of motion (typically so I can turn the hopup "more off" since it's wicked after you fiddle with the roller/cushions)
- mod the roller...it use 2 layers of material...a harder inner material and a softer outer material. Applies a very consistent hopup and just the smallest amount of hopup is needed to carry 0.28/0.30's
- mod the cushions...I use a mix of materials (hard/soft rubber) that give a good range of motion with some give to it....the stock 2 rubbers are really hard. Dunno what's best...but mine works fine.

The springs are different. Don't bother order bolt action springs and trial-error cutting them down. Go to Redwolf's site...look at the PTW parts...(assuming you got the gold cylinder)...pick out the other springs and PM Jugglez (airsoftparts.ca) to order them in.

The cylinder unscrews from either the front and/or the back....(I find it easier to change springs if I undo the back end)....unscrew end cap (split ring pliers are really handy for this)...take out old spring, drop in new. Do up the cap and you're done.

Water proof the electronic boards. Follow the directions. Lay out the boards...apply as instructed...put 'em back in the rifle...test. I did not spray anything on the motor itself.

I myself do not modify motors...so I won't comment on what others do to them.

Yes you can use a LiPo. Read the FAQ for differences between LiPo and NiCad. The most important part with PTW's is that they need 30A (the newer ones might be 35A) for EVERY shot...semi or auto. So your battery needs to be able to supply that demand. Lots of batteries can at first, but tail off quickly...that's not good enough. In the end electricity is electricity...but your battery has to be able to deliver the goods. Double check this info on the systema forum....it's detailed there.

[kolumbo69]

I have had my systema for probably 6 months now and I love it. It has some small hiccups that have been sorted by various members of the community. Parts can be expensive but they rarely fail. Honestly nothing is better than standing outside of an aegs range only to come in snap of two shots and get hits everytime. Any member or Gunsmith thats says they have built a gun that will shot as fast and be reliable is LYING I have yet to see these unicorn guns that will put a ptw to shame.

[Death March]

I'v had my PTW since the start of 2007 and my other AEG's see no use any more other than target shooting with my Son.
You don't need to go crazy with mod's just the motor Mod from tackelberry is kinda a must. I have the tackelberry mod on my motor and my hop-up has been mod'ed,and I use all Real steel parts on it as well (just not the lower reciver).
As for battery's I run the Firefox and love'em. I carry two in the crane stock so you don't have to take up space in you vest or pockets,it's kinda nice for that and there cheep!

[SteelToe]

So what did you end up with? Got pics to share with?

[Obie]

I'm also interested in knowing what you've decided upon. I'm also new to the airsoft community, have no gun of my own.

If I were to make a leap into the game, I'd like to at least buy a gun that I know I won't regret or get rid of too soon.

[AoiShikaku]

After an AEG and GBBR I ended up with a Systema PTW. I've learned what I could for both and are now used as my GF's primary guns.

I don't think I'd recommend buying it as a first gun because sometimes they can be problematic and a real pain in the ass to fix while on the field. It would help if you knew someone who knows their stuff about it though. But if you know your way around things around AEGs it would help, or did all the homework into the PTW it would be really useful in the event of problems.

Ive listed a few of the issues I've had with the PTW build as a brand new purchase on w w w . a i r s o f t - O n t a r i o . c o m . I'm not as active on here because of a lot stuff on here that I am not happy with. Also the total in price came up to $2500 to have a gun usable for indoor and outdoor ready, and enough mags to play.

Was it worth it? Yeah... I'm pretty happy with mine although a few thing on it aren't perfect, but the PTW is the closest as I can get to it. Would I go back to another gun... Extremely doubtful unless they out match the PTW.

FYI I'm using my iPhone to type this out so ignore all the spelling and grammar issues

[SteelToe]

Originally Posted by Obie

I'm also interested in knowing what you've decided upon. I'm also new to the airsoft community, have no gun of my own.

If I were to make a leap into the game, I'd like to at least buy a gun that I know I won't regret or get rid of too soon.

I was in the same boat as you. What helped me a lot was reading specially the PTW thread by Mcguyver. It will answer all your questions. What i understood from all the reading is that in general all needs tweaking and mega upgrading to get where the PTW is at. So if you add up all those parts and headache it cost more or the same. So I ended up buying a 2010 Systema M4A1.