Airsoft Canada - View Single Post - Canceled Milsims, Refunds, Consumer Rights and a meta post about the community as well as those responsible for hosting events

Derpystronk · August 9th, 2017, 01:02

For the past little while on Social Media I have seen numerous people posting about this game canceled out in BC. Discussions get heated pretty fast, with two sides to the conversation quick to jump in and scream at the other. One side is demanding refunds and berating a company for bad business practices, the other then claims the first group has the potential to destroy Airsoft as what is needed right now is to come together and save the community. As you can imagine these discussions get locked down really fast since it turns into shit slinging almost immediately.

I'm posting this here both because I believe this community has the ability to react maturely to this discussion, as well as the admins here know such discussions are necessary to the health of Airsoft in Canada. So let's jump in:

So what are we doing today? We're going to examine the issue. We're going to start by examining the observable facts of the situation, and then build the other details on top of it.

So what exactly happened?

The facts of what occurred are as follows:

An event organizer wanted to host an event on a certain date
This organizer has hosted events in the past
People prepaid for tickets months in advance
For one reason or another, the event was canceled essentially the last minute
Refunds were not automatically given, and instead issued in chunks of partial refunds at an unspecified pace.

Before we can dig deeper into this topic, we need to understand these are the only observable, objective facts so far. The other details (the stated reason for the canceled event) we can't really say we know with 100% certainty this is happening. These details above are the most observable, provable, simple fact of the situation so far, and all the other details simple add additional context, which we will get to.

So what should have happened?

Well, in most cases in "real life" if something like this were to occur you would simply be issued a refund. If you paid for a sport or concert ticket and they canceled, it's not really your fault. You get the money back.

But Airsoft is a bit different than this. I don't personally know the CEO of the sports stadium, or the individuals members of a touring band. I don't really care how they fix their bottom line after the thing gets canceled. We frequently know, befriend and interact with people in the Airsoft community and also know it's not a massive multi-million dollar business with endless profits. It's usually a dude, or dudes, trying to put on a good time for Airsofters while making a few dollars in the process for their time and effort.

So the question is: What did you buy?

Did you give money ahead of time to a community member in order to buy props / front costs for an event that ended up getting screwed

or

Did you give money to a business to attend an event that isn't happening and essentially paid money for nothing?

Such a distinction is really important right now, and will help inform your decision of what to do. If you feel like the community should band together so a community member doesn't get royally fucked, this is a valid view point. Everyone was hurt by the event not happening due to, well, the event not happening, vacation time lost, travel expenses committed to, etc etc.

However, the second view point is also entirely valid. You paid a company who is making some degree of profit off the event to host an event - it didn't happen. You get your money back. If the company goes into debt or gets fucked isn't really your concern, because it's your money not theirs. It is actually your rights as a consumer to pursue this refund, charge back your credit card, etc. Like, you are 100% legally entitled to your money if you want it.

What complicates the issue here is, ironically enough, the organizers comments on the issue. Below are two posts from the organizer, colored blue, that I believe demonstrates his attitude toward this issue and the community.

So let us just inventory what these screenshots say -

1) If you attempt to issue a refund in any method or ammount I do not approve of, I will fight this endlessly for months

2) We will ban you from our community and you will not be allowed back at any events we host

3) I will push your refund back to the bottom of the list and delay giving you any money if you attempt to charge back or "be a douche"

4) If you attempt to take any legal action at all it will mean all the refund money gets spent on a lawyer and nobody gets refunds

Firstly, can I just say - Holy shit. When I first read the first screenshot back in July I was absolutely blown away. These aren't the comments of a member of the community. These aren't the comments of someone who is your friend. This is... Something else. The comment posted a few days ago about lawyer and the limited incorporated company is just bananas itself.

If you try and lawyer up it'll just mean nobody gets a refund. Like holy shit. You essentially have this organizer, under threat of you not getting your money back, demanding people not take any action or do anything at all that would be consistent with your rights as a consumer. You can either wait to get something, or get nothing. It's your choice, it's not my fault if you choose to get no refund!

This alone, probably, means this is more of a "I paid a company for a product I didn't get" situation than the the community oriented one. This isn't a member of a community asking for assistance, asking for the neighbors to help him build a barn with him - this is him demanding of you. This is literally a threat. This is a different relationship entirely. Any hint or semblance of this being a "community" effort has gone out the window here.

Imagine if your neighbor did this, like "Well, if you want your lawn mower back, it just means I'm going to have to keep your hedge trimmer. Sorry. If you wait you might get both back, but I can't say for sure if that will happen, or when." This is some crazy, bizarro world stuff going on.

Let's rewind back a bit

So what actually are your "rights" here? Well, it's your money. Period. Full stop. He can't decide to keep it if you want it back. Period. You paid for a product/service and didn't get it. Period. These are the facts. Everything else is window dressing that may morally compel you to act in a way, but legally it's your money. Whether or not he gives it back? Well that is the issue which this whole thread revolves around.

If you feel like want your money back, what can you do?

My understanding is there were three methods of making a payment for this event - Interact EMT, Paypal and Credit Card.

Starting with Credit Card: You must call your card issuer and initate a charge back. Visa, Master Card, Amex all have different procedures and methods, but usually you will need to call them, inform them of the situation and start a formal procedure. This may involve faxing them a form plus other supporting evidence. They will tell you everything you need to know. The process may take time, but you will get your money back 100% as the case is clear cut and dry. You have a limited time to do this, so call your bank and determine how long you have to start this process.

Paypal: Paypal has various dispute processes - I am not sure how it works if there is no "balance" in the other persons account, and if it will put their account into a negative balance, but it is possible you will get your money back under Paypal's consumer protection policy. Review their policy, open a dispute, and get ready to be taken on a wild ride as the screenshot shows. You will win the dispute but whether the money is returned isn't a sure thing. If you had paid through Paypal but using your Credit Card, use the credit card procedures. Like the CC procedures, you have a limited time to open a dispute.

Interact EMT: You are basically fucked. There are no formal procedures to "charge back" a transaction, and you typically would have to go to a formal legal process (ie small claims court) to recover the funds, which basically isn't really worth the time and effort.

What will happen if this occurs and everyone charges back? Well, he will basically be stuck with a negative balance and a debt oweing to Visa / Paypal and will have to deal with that. Will this personally fuck over the event organizer? Well he said he is a limited incorperated entity, so technically it would be the businesses debt and not his. You may have to consider the fact that those who paid via EMT might not get a refund because all the charge backs will "eat up" the money, but in some respects this is on them for making a payment through a system that offers 0 real protection for the consumer. It sucks, but it's life.

In Summary:

This situation is really messed up. I think the situation is insanely out of control and there were any number of infinite ways that this could have been handled better, with more tact, etc. I don't believe, in any way, this is how members of the community should behave let alone event organizers who the community looks up to for guidance. I do not believe bullying people under threat of keeping their money is any sort of behavior that should be tolerated, let alone expected. It just opens us up to some bad shit. If he is a community member, he should ask the community for their help and sympathy - which many would willingly provide if asked. If he is a company, he should act like a responsible company and understand his company fucked up and has to deal with it like any other company should.

There is a huge difference between asking for help from the community, and literally saying if he has to hire a lawyer nobody will get a refund.

As you can see I've taken some steps to avoid naming the individual party, the event company, etc. I don't want this to be a shit slinging fest of people personally attacking or insulting the other party. If you wish to contribute to this thread, stick to the facts and leave your feels at the door.

August 9th, 2017, 01:02	#1
Derpystronk Trader rating Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Southern Ontario	Canceled Milsims, Refunds, Consumer Rights and a meta post about the community as well as those responsible for hosting events For the past little while on Social Media I have seen numerous people posting about this game canceled out in BC. Discussions get heated pretty fast, with two sides to the conversation quick to jump in and scream at the other. One side is demanding refunds and berating a company for bad business practices, the other then claims the first group has the potential to destroy Airsoft as what is needed right now is to come together and save the community. As you can imagine these discussions get locked down really fast since it turns into shit slinging almost immediately. I'm posting this here both because I believe this community has the ability to react maturely to this discussion, as well as the admins here know such discussions are necessary to the health of Airsoft in Canada. So let's jump in: So what are we doing today? We're going to examine the issue. We're going to start by examining the observable facts of the situation, and then build the other details on top of it. So what exactly happened? The facts of what occurred are as follows: An event organizer wanted to host an event on a certain date This organizer has hosted events in the past People prepaid for tickets months in advance For one reason or another, the event was canceled essentially the last minute Refunds were not automatically given, and instead issued in chunks of partial refunds at an unspecified pace. Before we can dig deeper into this topic, we need to understand these are the only observable, objective facts so far. The other details (the stated reason for the canceled event) we can't really say we know with 100% certainty this is happening. These details above are the most observable, provable, simple fact of the situation so far, and all the other details simple add additional context, which we will get to. So what should have happened? Well, in most cases in "real life" if something like this were to occur you would simply be issued a refund. If you paid for a sport or concert ticket and they canceled, it's not really your fault. You get the money back. But Airsoft is a bit different than this. I don't personally know the CEO of the sports stadium, or the individuals members of a touring band. I don't really care how they fix their bottom line after the thing gets canceled. We frequently know, befriend and interact with people in the Airsoft community and also know it's not a massive multi-million dollar business with endless profits. It's usually a dude, or dudes, trying to put on a good time for Airsofters while making a few dollars in the process for their time and effort. So the question is: What did you buy? Did you give money ahead of time to a community member in order to buy props / front costs for an event that ended up getting screwed or Did you give money to a business to attend an event that isn't happening and essentially paid money for nothing? Such a distinction is really important right now, and will help inform your decision of what to do. If you feel like the community should band together so a community member doesn't get royally fucked, this is a valid view point. Everyone was hurt by the event not happening due to, well, the event not happening, vacation time lost, travel expenses committed to, etc etc. However, the second view point is also entirely valid. You paid a company who is making some degree of profit off the event to host an event - it didn't happen. You get your money back. If the company goes into debt or gets fucked isn't really your concern, because it's your money not theirs. It is actually your rights as a consumer to pursue this refund, charge back your credit card, etc. Like, you are 100% legally entitled to your money if you want it. What complicates the issue here is, ironically enough, the organizers comments on the issue. Below are two posts from the organizer, colored blue, that I believe demonstrates his attitude toward this issue and the community. So let us just inventory what these screenshots say - 1) If you attempt to issue a refund in any method or ammount I do not approve of, I will fight this endlessly for months 2) We will ban you from our community and you will not be allowed back at any events we host 3) I will push your refund back to the bottom of the list and delay giving you any money if you attempt to charge back or "be a douche" 4) If you attempt to take any legal action at all it will mean all the refund money gets spent on a lawyer and nobody gets refunds Firstly, can I just say - Holy shit. When I first read the first screenshot back in July I was absolutely blown away. These aren't the comments of a member of the community. These aren't the comments of someone who is your friend. This is... Something else. The comment posted a few days ago about lawyer and the limited incorporated company is just bananas itself. If you try and lawyer up it'll just mean nobody gets a refund. Like holy shit. You essentially have this organizer, under threat of you not getting your money back, demanding people not take any action or do anything at all that would be consistent with your rights as a consumer. You can either wait to get something, or get nothing. It's your choice, it's not my fault if you choose to get no refund! This alone, probably, means this is more of a "I paid a company for a product I didn't get" situation than the the community oriented one. This isn't a member of a community asking for assistance, asking for the neighbors to help him build a barn with him - this is him demanding of you. This is literally a threat. This is a different relationship entirely. Any hint or semblance of this being a "community" effort has gone out the window here. Imagine if your neighbor did this, like "Well, if you want your lawn mower back, it just means I'm going to have to keep your hedge trimmer. Sorry. If you wait you might get both back, but I can't say for sure if that will happen, or when." This is some crazy, bizarro world stuff going on. Let's rewind back a bit So what actually are your "rights" here? Well, it's your money. Period. Full stop. He can't decide to keep it if you want it back. Period. You paid for a product/service and didn't get it. Period. These are the facts. Everything else is window dressing that may morally compel you to act in a way, but legally it's your money. Whether or not he gives it back? Well that is the issue which this whole thread revolves around. If you feel like want your money back, what can you do? My understanding is there were three methods of making a payment for this event - Interact EMT, Paypal and Credit Card. Starting with Credit Card: You must call your card issuer and initate a charge back. Visa, Master Card, Amex all have different procedures and methods, but usually you will need to call them, inform them of the situation and start a formal procedure. This may involve faxing them a form plus other supporting evidence. They will tell you everything you need to know. The process may take time, but you will get your money back 100% as the case is clear cut and dry. You have a limited time to do this, so call your bank and determine how long you have to start this process. Paypal: Paypal has various dispute processes - I am not sure how it works if there is no "balance" in the other persons account, and if it will put their account into a negative balance, but it is possible you will get your money back under Paypal's consumer protection policy. Review their policy, open a dispute, and get ready to be taken on a wild ride as the screenshot shows. You will win the dispute but whether the money is returned isn't a sure thing. If you had paid through Paypal but using your Credit Card, use the credit card procedures. Like the CC procedures, you have a limited time to open a dispute. Interact EMT: You are basically fucked. There are no formal procedures to "charge back" a transaction, and you typically would have to go to a formal legal process (ie small claims court) to recover the funds, which basically isn't really worth the time and effort. What will happen if this occurs and everyone charges back? Well, he will basically be stuck with a negative balance and a debt oweing to Visa / Paypal and will have to deal with that. Will this personally fuck over the event organizer? Well he said he is a limited incorperated entity, so technically it would be the businesses debt and not his. You may have to consider the fact that those who paid via EMT might not get a refund because all the charge backs will "eat up" the money, but in some respects this is on them for making a payment through a system that offers 0 real protection for the consumer. It sucks, but it's life. In Summary: This situation is really messed up. I think the situation is insanely out of control and there were any number of infinite ways that this could have been handled better, with more tact, etc. I don't believe, in any way, this is how members of the community should behave let alone event organizers who the community looks up to for guidance. I do not believe bullying people under threat of keeping their money is any sort of behavior that should be tolerated, let alone expected. It just opens us up to some bad shit. If he is a community member, he should ask the community for their help and sympathy - which many would willingly provide if asked. If he is a company, he should act like a responsible company and understand his company fucked up and has to deal with it like any other company should. There is a huge difference between asking for help from the community, and literally saying if he has to hire a lawyer nobody will get a refund. As you can see I've taken some steps to avoid naming the individual party, the event company, etc. I don't want this to be a shit slinging fest of people personally attacking or insulting the other party. If you wish to contribute to this thread, stick to the facts and leave your feels at the door. Last edited by Derpystronk; August 9th, 2017 at 01:05..