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Canadian JTF 2 Loadouts
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Hey guys, I was browsing the JTF 2 website when I came upon their brochure. I've placed a link to the brochure, which contains some pictures of what the JTF 2 wear. Can anyone identify their specific rigs and etc?
Also attached is a JTF2 Wallpaper I compiled. Enjoy! Link to: Dead URL |
Helmet looks like an IBH, all that I can really tell, still.. could be wrong. I'm more interested in the shoes and kneepads that the guy in the foreground is wearing, I've seen similar styled shoes on many military personnel, always wondered what they were.
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They look like some kind of hiking / mountaineer boots. I could be wrong though.
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The knee pads are from Arc'teryx. They don't really have a model for those but here they are :
http://www.bentgear.com/product_info...roducts_id=781 |
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That looks like a CVC helmet used by tank crews....
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ACH Mich 2001
http://www.airsoftxtreme.pl/data/inc.../mich_ziel.jpg |
Sorry for the necropost, but the helmet seeing on the rcmp photo it´s a CVC modified helmet. Was very common on awide variety of sf groups around the globe (including usa)
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Does anybody know the style of vest that JTF2 uses? It looks different than the standard CF vest and webbing.
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Pretty sure its a Paraclete Hard Plate Carrier, you can see other operators in the background wearing them. The couple of Sergeants and Warrants in CANSOFCOM that I've talked too (they are on their ILQ and SLQ) are walking-talking Paraclete salesmen.
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One of their recruiting posters also has an operator wearing a Mystery Ranch NICE system to carry their comms.
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YouTube - Joint Task Force 2
The BADDEST boys on the planet |
There's some better pictures here, for those interested.
http://www.jtf2.forces.gc.ca/ig-ri/index-eng.asp |
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Okay, if JTF or any other organization of the CF has reorganized. Considering the security blanket that surrounds JTF and CSOR, why post it here?? I think you need to check with you Regimental Security Officer to determine if you committed an OPSEC violation. The public has no need to know what the CF does or does not do, is or is not capable of when it comes to operations overseas.
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So Lerch are you yanking our chain or what?
btw, those new promotional photos on the JTF-2 website, I wonder if those are real soldiers from the unit or simply actors posed for the photograph? Because they are staged. |
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Slink away, slink away. |
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Material Technician welding away Sound exciting :) |
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~Thanato |
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There must have been some deleted post according to the quotes.:D
But the big boys are right,if you know something special,doesn't mean you have the right to repeat it in public.:rolleyes: These guys must do some really interesting training,could be fun in a painful way if your not in shape.:D |
I dont know if there the Paraclete Hard Plate Carriers, or the Diamondback Plate Carriers. If you look at the CJIRU, I think they use the Fast Attack Plate Carrier. If anyone has any imformation about this please let me know.
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There are some Paraclete plate carriers being used. Can't say much more though.
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http://www.theregimenthq.com/JTF2/graphics/b2ff87f3.jpg |
Indeed it does look like a chest rig, I don't think it's your imagination ;)
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Is he wearing plates in the plate carrier (front and back) with a bullet proof vest underneath it all? Is that normal or extra protection? Are plate carriers meant to be worn with plates and another ballistic vest under that? Or just the plates?
I have always been curious about that? Thanks ;) |
As that particular plate carrier only holds hard plates, it does not provide "all around" protection from frag. Given that McKay is a "VIP", it's understandable that they gave him some soft armour as well. As for the placement, it would be uncomfortable to wear hard plates under soft armour, hence the carrier is on the outside.
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Also if you think about it this way... If your plate carrier has both your front / rear / side plates and your soft body armor padding all contained, if you had to ditch your armor carrier to get out of a vehicle, or because you're snagged on something and its life threatening: You now have no armor protection. |
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You aren't, it's a London Bridge 1961A in Tan with a VIP strobe light for IFF. Armor is layered like that for a couple reasons: operator is able to uparmor in order to respond to threats, it's lighter than a full armor system, he's probably not using standalone ceramic plates and need the soft armor layer to take potential kinetic energy in the event of incoming rifle fire, and yes, a standard of 360 degree protection from shrapnel. |
Are plate carriers (with plates in the front and back) always worn with a BPV underneath or are they also worn without the BPV combo?
And what level of protection are the plates? Level III or IV? And what level of protection are the BPV? Thanks for all the info, has cleared up some old questions :) |
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It's been a long time since you started this thread. Not sure if you're still interested, but here are some of the items that jump out at me in the brochure you linked. Most items may be familiar to you, while others are unique to/within CANSOF. Bolle T-800 Tactical Goggles Oakley SI O-Frame Googles Oakley M-Frame Glasses with Sweep clear lens Petzl TACTIKKA-series headlamps Traser tritium watch Peltor ComTac I and Comtac II Headsets Peltor Tactical 6 Headset SOG SEAL Pup knives Arc'teryx X-350a Climbing Harness Arc'teryx Military Kneecaps Cadex Defence Model 643-93C NVG Helmet Mounts Ops Inc. 15th Model 5.56 CQB MBS Suppressors INVISIO M3-series Tactical Headset Systems ...and yes, a lot of Paraclete gear, mostly MSA-Paraclete HPC/SOHPC. Hope this helps. |
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Blackhawk SOLAG gloves, Thales Urban Speaker Microphone, Pro-Tec Ace helmet on the SO Cox'n, and a wide selection of red-dot/reflex/telescopic and holographic weapon sights.So perhaps we can keep this thread going over the long term and it can serve as a resource to anyone researching and collecting JTF2/CANSOF gear. |
Other than paraclete, what vests do they use? RAVs? CIRAS?
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They use most of the time for DA, RAV, SOHPC, HPC paraclete, I've seen a pic of LBT1961 A on HPC...
They can use what they want.... |
Anybody interested by a new French forum on JTF-2 forces?
Midma |
Just a forum: http://jtf2-reenactment.forumactif.net/forum.htm
For who are really interested by JTF-2 forces. :) Midma |
I find it weird that jtf2 is never mentioned in the media, let alone seen.
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In the US, for a long time (maybe still) it was government policy to not even admit to the existence of the top level teams, i.e. Delta Force, Seal Team 6, etc... Whereas the Canadian government puts "pictures" of JTF2 on the Forces' website along with FAQs about recruiting standards... and MPs/Ministers occasionally open their yaps and blab about where the team is and what it's doing. |
What is weird about that. A do you want a Special Warfare Unit the is required to perform Covert and Secretive Taskings posted all over bill boards. Up until the Princess Gate OP: NIMROD almost no one had heard of the Special Air Services Regiment. With the exception of WW2 Exploits.
The less the public knows about what, where, when who and how the better. |
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I have to chuckle at the offshore forum dedicated to 'JTF2 Loadouts' given that pics of guys from the unit are rarer than rocking horse shit. I don't expect a lot of posting activity there LOL. |
The biggest reason you know so much about the US Special Forces is that they have a large enough force that they don't rely on being as anonymous. You still don't hear about most of their exploits, only major ops that don't need secrecy. I think you'd be hard pressed still to find the actual identities of current SOCOM Operators, not sure about retired. JTF2 is much much smaller and can't risk having anything be mentioned in the media for it runs a risk to operators and their families. The SAS were veiled in similar secrecy. Only a few have written books (mainly andy mcnabb...not his real name) and it is still questioned the accuracy of most of these accounts. Hence it is always funny when on everybody that posts a JTF2 video on youtube, everybody has a cousin or uncle or friend of a friend on JTF2. That would make them larger than all of the CF.
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Intel briefings by officers overseas ( In main bases. ) are done in front of some people ( officers/chain of command/intel civilians, secret services etc...) and they are not even aware if a JTF2 member is in the meeting and/or absolutely do not know his identity by any matter.
Most missions they get is directly from the top of the chain of command and CSIS. |
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Couple Photos of JTF2 on a PSD with Stephen Harper in Afghanistan
http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6769/32798551ru5.jpg http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/3940/32798541pd2.jpg http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/6335/32798345cl6.jpg http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6101/32798486ar2.jpg http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/7678/32798421yt8.jpg http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/2310/32798503hv8.jpg http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/6509/32798398wn9.jpg http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/8233/32798487oi7.jpg Thought some people might appreciate these, they look to be wearing Paraclete RAV's not sure which generation/model. |
good pict'S
I just like to know why most of the pictures showing JTF2 or else unit doing personal protection are not using optics ? |
Because they will be shooting reactively at close targets and will get the F-out with the PM. While the regular troop on perimeter duty will do the long range shooting.
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Well from all the pictures I've seen of them doing PSD (either with MacKay or Harper), they've been running the 10 inch suppressed rifles with the rail-mounted carry handle (Colt not Diemaco). Dunno why that is but it explains the lack of optics, running optics on the handguard rail is fairly unwieldy. One of the 4 guys I've seen running that rifle setup had an EOTech on it though.
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I just wish we had more pictures and knew more about them, from what I understand and have read they did a good sum of some of the hardest fighting in Iraq. Is it fair to say they on the same operational level as DEVGRU?
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EDIT: Here you go, you can see he has it mounted a notch further back than normal on the receiver so some of the rail is exposed: http://www.theregimenthq.com/JTF2/graphics/b2ff87f3.jpg |
Check out the Colt Canada website.... there's pictures of C8s with removable carry handles... also there's a whole section on accessories.
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But the question was much regarding the use of a aimpoint or eotech. arent they made for thoses type of situation ? Or is there a other reason not to use them ? Weight ? space ? etc. |
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It's not unreasonable to assume CANSOF works side by side with USSOCOM in areas where there is no official Canadian mil. presence. Good luck trying to prove it. This is one of those things that is best left off public internet forums ya feel me?
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RE: JTF2 in Iraq
Indeed, during the first week of the war in 2003, then-U.S. Ambassador to Canada, Paul Cellucci, said that Canada had provided "more support indirectly to this war in Iraq than most of the 46 countries that are fully supporting our efforts there." Considering that the only real photos we have of JTF2 are PSD's we can only assume that the vast majority of their missions are Black Ops for deniability reasons. |
Can anyone ID the gang sign being flashed by the JTF-2 soldier in the background??
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/283...nistan91er.jpg |
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What kind of under body armor could be khoser? I've got a paraclete HPC on SG and a Paraclete mesh concealment vest carrier on SG too, so, it could be a valid combo? What pistol do they use? I know it's a sig, but what model? We need more info!! LOL! |
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Thanks pugs144.
Well, I'm working on a kitlist based on the information of this post, the things I see on several JTF-2 photos and the stuff I've got. So i wanetd to know if I'm on the right way. *=Stuff I've got Apparel - CADPAT WL Uniform - CADPAT Desert Uniform - *BHI Riggers Belt - *AWS PRL - BHI SOLAG GLOVES / Hatch Operator / Nomex Flight Gloves - Arcteryx kneepads - Civilian style mountain boots - *Bolle X800T - *Oacklye M-Frame Helmet - Gallet TC 3000 / 3001 / sogh (Gallet model from MSA MICH 2000 / 2001) - CADEX NVG MOUNT - VIP IR Strobe Light - CADPAT helmet covers Comms - Radio unknown (I´ve read that maybe a PRC-149 or maybe a PRR) - Peltor Comtac II - TCI TASC I 1st Line - *EI Duty Belt black - Safariland 6004 for sig p226 + m3 - *2 x Paraclete 9mm mag pouch smoke green 2nd Line - *Paraclete HPC Smoke Green - Paca lowvis Tan - *3 x M4 Double Mag pouch Smoke Green - *1 x Radio Pouch Smoke Green - *1 x Small Utility Pouch Smoke Green - *2 x Paraclete frag grenade pouch Smoke Green 3rd Line - *Camelbak HAWG black Blasters - C8SFW 10.5" (CQB) - EoTech 552 - ACOG + Docter - M3X black - AR 15 style 4 pos stock + recoil pad - Tango Down VFG black - VFC PEQ-15 - OPS 15th model 5.56 CQB silencer - SIG P226 + M3 I've put somethings like PRL that I never seen on a photo but it's useful and why not do they use it. And for the tango down vfg and the peq-15 it's something similar. The M3 flashligth on the C8 I'm not sure. On the brochure pictures seems to be this flashlight, but I'm not sure. Thanks! |
^^^ It's not a PACA it's Paraclete's Low Profile RAV same idea though.
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So it's not a paca it's a paraclete rav concealment vest? that's fine.
As I asked before, I've got a paraclete mesh concealment vest carrier, so this could be valid? Thanks! |
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they almost operate like the us navy seals
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"Almost?" Orly? |
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I suspect this is one of those times where the defence team thing to do is let a 15 year old spout off his vast knowledge of Tier One SOF in Canada, relying on his Level III and obvious need to know. Actually there's a CANSOFCOM opening on the ICC working group and the CFJP 3.0 review, maybe he'd like to join. |
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( wouldn't use wiki as a valuable truthful source. Anyone can post anything they think to be true on there. )
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The rig looks like the LBT 1961a, oldschool with black buckles. I'm no geardo though... |
Doesn't the LBT rigs have the small sleeves along the outsides of the shoulder straps to help organize and direct the operators comm kit?
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Thanks. Can anyone confirm the VLTOR stock?
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Looks like a VLTOR also looks like he's removed the battery compartments.
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Good eyes, man. Do you think he might have removed the compartments to allow the ziptie to achieve a snug fit between the stock and the recoil pad? Who knows.
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http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/6769/32798551ru5.jpg
Must be the operators choice. Different dude with the battery compartments attached. Black ziptie, I think. |
JTF2 are so bad!
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Oh, yes they do a lot of very naughty things. Things worthy of a spanking.
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Edit: sorry, I'm late...
Midma |
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very limited photos indeed in the internet, I think we have seen what were allowed to see... LOL |
A little sum up I've done on the french forum.
Hope it help, sorry for the use of french. Do not hesitate to tell me if they have error or miss because I've done it alone. :) Enjoy. Introduction aux JTF-2: Créé en 1993, le JTF-2 (pour Joint Task Force 2) ou FOI2 (pour Forces Opérationnelles Interarmées 2) est l'unité spéciale Canadienne responsable de la lutte anti-terrorisme dans son pays. A la base composée de 100 membres, elle en compte aujourd'hui plus de 600. L'idée de la création d'une Force Spéciale anti-terroriste est née en 1982, sous l'impulsion du ministre de la Défense de l'époque. L'idée de cette création est survenue après le fiasco de la Force 777 Egyptienne le 23/11/1985. Ce jour lÃ*, un avion a été pris en otage par des terroristes Palestiniens. Le Gouvernement Egyptien, non préparé, a envoyé ses unités après l'exécution du 5ème otage. Il y a plus de victimes civiles que de terroristes (20 morts en ouvrant la porte Ã* cause de surcharges d'explosifs, 37 passagers soit brûlés par l'incendie ou tout simplement confondus avec des terroristes, donc abattus. Un exemple qui a refroidi le Gouvernement Canadien (2 civils Canadiens mort dans "l'accident") et les convaincu qu'une telle opération ne devait plus se reproduire. A l'époque, il existait déjÃ* une unité, le SERT (Special Emergency Response Team), dirigée par le RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police). On pourrait simplifier en disant que le SERT était le GIGN local et le RCMP (qui existe toujours), la Gendarmerie. Le SERT a été disloqué en 1993 pour être remplacé par le JTF-2, leur officier étant considéré comme trop violents. La seule chose dont a hérité le JTF-2 des SERT, c'est son lieu d'entrainement, Dwyer Hill Road, en Ottawa. Le Fort Bragg Canadien. Etant né tardivement comparé Ã* d'autres pays développés, les JTF-2 doivent rattraper un retard certain. Même si Ã* la création, l'unité est contrôlée par des vétérans, elle va sérieusement se rapprocher du SAS Britannique afin de développer ses techniques de combats, puisque des opérateurs Anglais vont se déplacer afin "d'enseigner". Le GIGN, les Delta et le GSG-5 vont également constituer une source d'inspiration certaine dans ses débuts. Comme toutes les Forces Spéciales, le JTF-2 demande des capacités physiques et mentales très fortes. La première source de recrutement est l'armée Canadienne, quel que soit la branche dont les soldats viennent. Les opérateurs doivent être capables d'agir sur tout type de terrains, en l'air comme sous l'eau ou dans des endroits confinés. Un très long processus de plusieurs tests différents détermine leur entrée dans l'unité. A sa création, l'unité n'est pas dévoilée au grand publique, et il faut attendre la guerre en Afghanistan afin d'en connaître l'existence. En Décembre 2001, une quarantaine d'opérateurs sont envoyés en Astan, et quelques mois plus tard, le journal Globe and Mail publie en première page une photo de soldats Canadiens livrant des prisonniers Ã* des Américains. Le Gouvernement Canadien va alors être dans l'obligation de dévoiler et de clarifier l'existence de l'unité. Le champ d'action des JTF-2 s'étend petit Ã* petit, mais il compte désormais 4 grands axes: - lutte anti-terrorisme, au niveau national et international (comme en Afghanistan). - action "low-profile" (comme en Bosnie, en traquant les tireurs d'élite) - garde du corps pour VIP politique, sécurisation (le diplomate Raymond Chrétien au Zaïre en 1996, le président Haïtien René Préval pour la partie garde du corps, les JO d'Hiver Ã* Vancouver en 2010 pour la sécurisation...) - la formation de d'unités étrangères, même si l'unité est récente, elle a appris au équipes de police en Haïti notamment. Selon le type d'opération, l'unité utilise soit le Cadpat Arid, soit le TW. Dans le cadre d'opération de libération d'otages, c'est le noir qui sera dominant. Le Canada est collé aux Etats-Unis, et ça se ressent au niveau de l'utilisation du matériel. 90% du matériel est "Made in USA". Les opérateurs privilégient les mêmes marques et préférences que leur confrères Américains, c'est-Ã*-dire le LBT, le Paraclete. Matériel: Pour les second line, on remarque une redondance au niveau du matériel. RAV (Releasible Armor Vest) Paraclete: http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/7...33nb3nsfu5.jpg SOHPC Paraclete: http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/jtf2p11.jpg RRS-V customisée ou pas: http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/jtf2af10.jpg HPC avec LBT1961 A par dessus: http://img196.imageshack.us/img196/2629/hpcf.jpg Ont également été vu, soit sur des JTF-2 soit sur des autres type des forces spéciales Canadiennes: - FAPC Diamondback Casque: Mich 2000: http://img.youtube.com/vi/aDWbLFgEHso/0.jpg Mich 2001: http://www.cansofcom.forces.gc.ca/im...-apercu-17.jpg Pro-Tec: http://i14.servimg.com/u/f14/14/74/26/00/sans_t12.jpg Egalement vu, en plus faible quantité: - Barrday CG634, le troupe des Forces Canadiennes - Mich 2002 Systèmes de communication: Comtac I: http://i65.servimg.com/u/f65/14/65/29/42/comtac10.jpg Autres: - Comtac II - Bowman (type Cavalvy) Autres: Montages: Noroto et OB Lucie NVG: PVS-7 14, AN/PVS-504, AN/PVS7D, AN/PVS-14, Maxi KITE (montage sur arme uniquement). Genouillères: Alta (noir, TAN et OD uniquement), Arc'teryx (noir uniquement), Bijan (CB uniquement). Lunettes: Oakley M-Frame, Oakley A-Frame, ESS Profile, Bollé X-800, Wiley-X (modèle?) Holsters: Safariland 6004 (noir uniquement), Serpa CQC BHI (tan uniquement), poche pour C7/C8. Couteaux: SOG Pup knife Accessoires: Flashlights: Surefire X200, M3X Streamlight, P114 Surefire, 310/610R Surefire Target Pointer: PEQ-10 ILWLP, AN/PEQ-2, AN/PEQ-15 Optiques: - Eotech 552, 551 - Aimpoint CompM2 - Elcan C79 - Elcan Specter - ACOG Un détail: les JTF-2 sont parmis les rares Ã* avoir leur optiques (dans le cas d'un dot) sur le RIS de leur arme (CF.: ici , et non comme on peut le voir d'habitude Ã* la place du carry handle. Dans beaucoup de missions, notamment de protection de VIP, ils préfèrent carrément de pas avoir d'optiques: http://img822.imageshack.us/img822/6101/32798486ar2.jpg Armes de poing: Une chose est sûr, les opérateurs n'ont pas accès ou ne veulent pas avoir accès au .45. Pour les armes de poings, un seul calibre: le 9x19mm. Une seule marque même: Sig Sauer, Ã* l'exception des quelques rares Browning High Power (ou GP35, maintenant délaissés pour leur ancienneté). Pour justifier l'utilisation du 9mm, je me permets de citer GreatHumpBack: Quote:
P226: http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/8233/32798487oi7.jpg http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/4568/drill.jpg GP35: (attention, sur la photo, c'est un soldat des forces régulières.) http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/4...2009101614.jpg Mais également: - P225 - P228 - P229 Fusils: Pour les opérations anti-terrorisme, ou en CQB, l'éternel séries des MP5. MP5: http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/jtf210.jpg C8A2: http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/9672/imagehzi.jpg Egalement: - C8A1 - C7A1 - C7A2 - C8FTHB - P-90 Autres armes: Pour le close combat: Remington 870: Soldat des Forces Régulières: http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/10-17-10.jpg Egalement: - Benelli M3 Super 90 Pour le tir de précision: LRSW - C15 Big Mac: Soldats des Forces Régulières: http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/3...ipersprmh3.jpg - MRS - C7CT/AR-10T - MRSWS – the C14 - MRSW – the C3A1 - Accuracy International AW .338 - H&K PSG-1 - M-82A1 Barrett .50 Si les opérateurs sont en mission où ils doivent se fondre dans la masse, on considère qu'ils peuvent utiliser n'importe quelle arme tant qu'elle participe au succès de la mission. Liens vidéos: - http://www.youtube.com/v/ZTDW_geVVXw - http://www.youtube.com/v/0iw_P6_pb5o - http://www.youtube.com/v/Iwq-vNKIyTM - http://www.youtube.com/v/QwgijLe_zzQ Sites webs et articles: Fichier PDF du Gouvernement afin de faire connaître l'unité. http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/cdnmilitary/jtf2.html http://www.cmaq.net/node/29998 http://www.jtf2.forces.gc.ca/index-fra.asp Photos real deal pour inspiration: (les photos 5, 8, 15, 17, 18 et 19 sont des opérateurs du CSOR). http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/8896/mibp.jpg http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/3473/swimmerj.jpg http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/5007/45686064.jpg http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1694/jtf2operation.jpg http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/5421/wa20070149.jpg http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1...anadianafp.jpg http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/9...tan67tp4mm.jpg http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/3578/jtf2bicolor.jpg http://img85.imageshack.us/img85/705...an103cj6ip.jpg http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/7...tan96ka8rh.jpg http://img269.imageshack.us/img269/1...2humvee6bz.jpg http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/735...thaiti95jh.png http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/3530/jtf21.jpg http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/6...evacuating.jpg http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/8624/soaseosa09.jpg http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3940/32798541pd2.jpg http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/3453/jtf214.jpg http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/4254/6ekz1v.jpg http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2456/11bojh5.jpg Et les photos de la campagne publicitaire faite par le gouvernement Canadien lors de l'agrandissement de l'unité. http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/64953j10.jpg http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/64959j10.jpg http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/64971j10.jpg http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/64976j10.jpg http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/64982j10.jpg http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/64987j10.jpg http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/64988j10.jpg http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/64994j10.jpg http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/65000j10.jpg http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/14/65/29/42/65293j10.jpg J'espère que ça servira aux curieux, car je me suis débrouillé pour ne faire aucun copier-coller, j'espère que ma formulation n'est pas trop lourde du au fait que j'ai rassemblé les infos de plusieurs sites et d'un bouquin. Si vous voyez des erreurs, n'hésitez pas Ã* me le faire remarquer, ça a pu m'arriver, notamment sur les photos. Midma |
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