Degradation of Civility between players
 

As a game Host I see a lot of payers engaging in this activity from the position of a Third Party Observer.

And I have observed over the past years a general Degradation of Civility between players.

Players are just as apt to flip their opponents the bird when hit as to call out a hearty "nice Shot!"

Instead of thinking the best of people they think the worst.

No one seems to give anyone the benefit of the doubt.

If they seem to not take what looks like a good hit.. they are a "asshole cheater"

We engage in a game that has at it's root the concept of honestly and fair play , but it seems that most people believe that they are the only "honest Player" at the game and everyone else is out to cheat.

I hate to see people calling other people "cheaters"

But it's worse to see people doing nothing about it but whining.

As players we all have a duty to protect the integrity of this game.

We have only 2 things that we can do to meet this goal.

1. give your friend the benefit of the doubt ( and there is lots of room for doubt that any shot will hit or that any shot will be felt )

2. take action when we witness the underpinnings of our game compromised.


It is utterly useless to complain about "cheating" at games in the after action report.. If you honestly believe that people were cheating and you did nothing about it. You are more to blame than the so called "cheater"
if you don't take action you condone it, if you condone it then you likely do it.

So at the end of the day to whine about Cheaters but do nothing about them means that you are the cheater and you are just whining so no one suspects you.

If you want a better game.. it starts with you. Giving your friends the benefit of the doubt and in the face of no doubt , taking action.

So what do you do if you suspect cheating.

1. Call OUT on yourself.. ( you can't resolve this in game)
2. Walk over to the offending player and introduce yourself and ask them their name.
3. ASK them if they felt the hit suspected
4. Tell them what you saw

In most cases the person will apologize and say they legitimately did not feel the hit and concede that they are hit and walk off with you.

In some cases the person will disagree in which case you must escalate this to game control. Both of you should go to game control and let them sort this issue out.

If the person refuses to go to game control. Record the person's name. and you go to game control to make a formal complaint.

Also, treat every player with respect and as a person who is your friend.. name-calling and being a jerk just makes things worse.

Assholes eventually get squeezed out of this game.. but it's getting harder to tell who they are when everyone is all acting so badly.

When I played in the early '90s, it was a progression on paintball, mainly from the realism perspective (engagement distances, equipment, etc.). We were - for the most part - honest about our hits because we knew that the game was driven based on the Honour System. Also, there weren't many of us playing back then - a large game was 20 bodies on the field, whereas a typical game was 4-8.

Times have changed and airsoft has gotten much greater exposure. In recent years (via heresy) the consensus is that the "quality" and "civility" of players has degraded. I haven't seen this yet, though I've seen my share of hot-heads this season. I think part of the reason for this feeling of degradation is that more people are entering the sport, but are coming from the perspective of video games (CoD, MoH, ArmA, take your pick), where "dying" is something to avoid at all costs, even if it means "glitching" or "cheating" at the game. They feel they must "stay in the field" at all costs, and being sent back to respawn affects their "kill streak".

Guess what - the game doesn't work that way.

The game has rules, but the rules are all based on the Honour System. The system doesn't favour cheaters or folks looking for loopholes (e.g., the recent sniper MED loophole to challenge a mercy). The rules are there so everyone plays on a level field. It comes down to personal integrity/honour, willingness to take the risk, and living with the consequences. The game is as much about personal responsibility as team responsibility.

A hit is a hit is a HIT. Suck it up. Call yourself out. Recognize that you're not always going to be lucky, or fortunate, or more accurate, or faster on the draw. That you may just be in the wrong place at the right time. That hindsight is 20/20, and foresight is often a clusterfuck. Recognize that your BBs will veer, that rounds may hit and go unnoticed, that people DO MAKE MISTAKES.

And then, shake hands and move on.

I've been cussing at other players for years.

Usually though, it's more like:

"I got you now you bastard!!"

or

"Stand up and fight like a man" (I've actually gotten a few kills that way).

or

"You got me, asshole!!"

None of it is mean-spriited, I just cuss like a German truck-drivin' sailor.

I have on occasion caught guys who ignored a double-tap intentionally, and I advised them to call themselves out or they'll get the rest of the mag. That is usually enough.

I never call somebody out for not calling a hit, just shoot them more in a different spot.
Everybody is getting more and more gear to complete a look they are going for, and this means that there are more and more spots that you can hit them and they will not feel it. If they have some fancy headset or are in a fire fight, they might not hear the hit either.

I always give other player then benefit of the doubt (unless I can obviously tell that they are ignoring hits) because I am sure that there have been times where I was caught up in a moment, listening to radio chatter all mixed in with the noise of a running mechbox or GBBR, and I have not felt or heard a BB hit my gear.

It happens.
Its unfortunate, but it cannot be helped.

I noticed that some player talk too much on the field.
Take your hits, call hit and lay dead silently on the ground with a red flag visible.
Comments ruin the game IMO.
If a player don't call hit, than by all mean shoot him untill he drop. Just like in the real war.

No offence Mcguyver, but I hate it when people comment on the field. IMO, that's for the AAR.

If there is a misunderstanding, then resolve it on the spot in a civil and polite manner.

I've been noticing this over the past couple of years. Reason #3 I hardly play anymore.

Interesting that this topic comes up. I have found that 99% of the folks I have played with are more than happy to call their hits, play fairly, and respect the rules and other players. The other 1% usually are not intentionally ignoring any of the above. A prime example happened yesterday when I was hitting a player on his helmet with multiple shots. I started to get a bit frustrated as I was watching bb's ricochet off of his head when the referee let him know he was getting shot up. It became quite obvious that he wasn't being a dickhead, but just couldn't feel the hits and with all the bb's flying didn't know he was being hit. The gent called himself out and left the field without complaint. Have yet to run into an out and out cheater, although I am sure they are out there.

Outstanding post Brian

I dropped an impact tornado genade at some guys feet behind a door during Rhino and he preceded to tell me that since he "didn't feel it" it didn't count and promptly shot me in the face. Was not happy but took my hit and respawned. Am a firm believer in what goes around comes around so I have no doubt that he will get his (and propably whine like a bitch about it).

At the end of the day it's a game and if you play agressively your going to die more than you kill, and if you camp your going to die. You dont need stroke someone else's ego on how they killed you but do the right thing and then get back in the game.

Thats unbelievable!

Should have been brought up with game staff IMO : /
Certinly an attitude I do NOT want to play with.

... but why does it always take a level headed, common sense post like Brian's to bring out the sportsman-like comments in people. It's obvious that respect given, gets respect. It's obvious there is an in-game process to resolve these thing (it's been there for years). It's obvious you should reward some poor fucker who's been sitting all day in the field, getting stung and bitten with a hit... if it hit you... if you even SUSPECT that he's hit you. Wouldn't you want the same?

Just like Rhino, and now HotBox... I think that there is the potential for some real good to come out of these games. I'm looking forward to more and more of these MilSims.

this post made me real happy to see that ppl are aware of whats going on and are completely ( more or less ) willing to resolve issues regarding a hit

thank you very much for posting this

Many times I saw my shots going straight but what they really do once you lose sight of them is curve SHARP. They look to the shooter as straight but spin to the side at the last second.

Been on the giving and recieveing end of it.

I've definitely had more good experiences with this than bad. At Hot box, there was really only 1 close to frustrating time. I shot a guy a few times, and watched them clearly hitting him. He stopped, looked around, then started to run away. I shot him again and he finally called himself out. I took it to assume he just didn't feel the initial hits and just heard gunfire.

I actually hilariously ran into Arnold in building 2, just before the no-respawn phase of Hot Box. He came up to me pointing in the direction of my team telling me there was a guy there. I looked at him for a second and said "But I'm not on your team." And took a few shots at his legs before he turned and got me in the chest. I took the hit, but pointed out that I tagged him in the leg as well. He said he didn't feel it, then looked down at his thigh pocket seemingly remembering the big bulge in it, looked like a book maybe. Said he probably just didn't feel it and took the hit as well. We laughed about him being confused by my multicam looking green and we both headed back to respawn. Definitely made me more respectful of him and it was great to see that kind of sportsmanship despite being an "enemy".

But as a few have pointed out, for the most part it's good, aside from the few hot heads here and there.

+1

Since we are a pretty small gaming group here on the Vancouver Island we haven't had many problems. We all call hits, hell I've called myself out on a fluke riccoche just because I felt it through my gear. When I called hit the shooter was scratching his head lol. But in our community if your going to cheat there isn't anywhere else to play, so it's been pretty good. I've never had to tell someone to leave, or as a group been pissed at some dude because he won't call his hits. But it is unfortunate that this happens as it just wrecks the game for everyone.

Similar situation here in NL; we have a small group so it's easier to resolve these kinds of issues. Typically they get brought up later, in private, and resolved that way. It's very rarely come to name-calling on the field.

At the start of the game, in the briefing, the last thing I talk about his to remember that everyone came here to have fun and that if they are in a bad mood today that they came here to forget about everything else and have fun. It works so far, games with 90 players and not one complaint of bad behavior. Rules are not there to argue over like lawyers, they are there to give you a basic behavior pattern. If a problem arises on the field, both players should try to be fair to the other player. Worse case, you both die or you both go your way and come back to fight. Once you forget your there to have a good time, you forget how to be a good player and you wont really enjoy yourself.

I remeber those days man, Big games at Dragon OPs was 30 guys. and we were all buddies. Quality Airsofting and treating everyone with basic respect.

I have seen rules written where everyone gets a Name tag, factory or Duct tape. Things go better when you realise you're shooting against guys you know from the boards and who is shooting at you.

This is a problem I've found as well. It usually seems to stem from specific teams, not just random players. At large away games, teams usually display their own play style. If things are bad on their home field, they tend to bring it with them. It really comes down to the commanders. If your running an airsoft team, you don't want to play with guys that have usual attitude based symptoms. Quality not quantity I guess. It's easy for a whole team to get tarred with the same brush when they have bad players, they bring to away games.

When we bring our team to away games, best behavior, sportsmanship, and attitude are more important than ever. I have noticed many teams being black listed, and the improvement of gameplay at larger milsims. I don't want some jerk making my whole team look bad, never mind dealing with him every weekend at our own field. Every team goes through it's growing pains however, but it's important to look for the right guys to play. Just because someone has the time and money, doesn't mean they'll be a good airsofter. I believe this is why invite only games are becoming more prevellant.

But ya, it's starts on your home field. Be the one to set the examples, play sportsmanlike, and Remember that fighting does nothing but bring the whole team down. No one likes a whiner, but if nothing is reported then the behavior will continue.

On a side note; I'd like to mention the players who think they hit everything. But seem not to realize, their gun can't brush cut, their aim isn't very good, or sometimes their equipment is sub-par. They seem to be the ones that yell "COME ON!", or "CALL YOUR HITS!". Anyone else been just standing there, or walking by and the BB's aren't even coming close?

I blame Xbox live, and call of duty. Damn kids and their videogames.
Anyway, remember that counterstrike is the game that taught us, if a person is good, they MUST be cheating.

I have a feeling that the name-calling and shouting off vulgarities stems from the fact that this new generation of players are sheltered from actual human contact by things like Facebook and the internet, subsequently making them afraid of confrontation for problems like this. Shouting off profanities from a distance or privately to team mates is lightyears easier than actually confronting the player in question and risk having an awkward moment when they disagree with you.

Personally, I have the same fears of "provoking" others due to uncalled shots so I generally tend to avoid doing so. Should I feel that the player in question is a repeat offender or they're intentionally cheating - I usually use this trick to avoid any potential butthurts that may result: I tell them that my gun is experiencing hopup problems and ask if they felt any of my shots and that I had a perfectly clear shot at them.

Asking this way removes the tension from the situation and any butthurts from misunderstandings can be avoided.

I think that if a player is "checking" themselves its fine to tell them it was in fact a hit. I know, especially with low fps guns or low rof weapons hitting say a boot or vest a hit might just make someone think they dropped or bumped something.

yeah comments take away from the atmosphere a bit, but I like hearing/giving positive feedback during a game. If I see lots of thumbs up and positive comments coming from players, It reasures me that this is a good group of people and everyone is playing fair while having fun.

Unless it's obvious or blatant, always give the player the benefit of the doubt. We've all not called a hit unintentionally. The problem here is guys repeat offending. Or in the primary basis of this post, the attitudes that arise. In airsoft attitude is everything. The right thought process will decide a players future. If your a good guy, and a straight shooter people tend not to question or accuse you. But when it's allowed to spread around, everyones attitude is affected. You end up with guys so frustrated they resort to yelling, arguing, or unsportsmanlike conduct. I'm a big fan of banning players and teams from further events. It sets an example to others to control themselves, it rewards the sportsmanlike players, and actually can give an event a better rep.

Enough with all the introspective thought on hit calling. JUST CALL YOUR DAMN HITS.

chewy bars are not as chewy as before.
I like it when someone says I did a nice shot, though...

True enough. Positive feedback, and chatter can also help the situation. But as far as calling hits go. Ya, you have to call them. It's what this whole sport is based on after all. I think these issues have come about due to the frequency of players not calling hits. If it was more isolated like when there were fewer players/teams, it wouldn't be an issue.

and don't be a douche.

haha im pretty much the same way ill swear then say nice shot or good kill or ill yell at a guy to keep still so i can shoot him =p

This is a great discussion and I think everyone should give this a read.

Playing fair is the only thing we have!

On the side of the shooter: Ensure the person is dead!
On the side of the shootee: Call your hits!

Again Great Discussion!

Thanks, Brian.

Need a reminder every once and a while to not take getting hit too seriously, and that it's only a game. Doesn't matter if I get hit, I get to come back. I don't disregard hits purposefully, but I certainly do feel annoyed, or frustrated when I get hit occasionally. Have to bring that back down and remember I get to re-spawn shortly thereafter.

I'll have to remember the "nice shot" doctrine, I feel that that's much better, and far more polite.

Wow thats retarded.

In hotbox I run past a room with 2 guys who took shots at me, eventhough I didnt feel any hits I called myself out because chances are I was hit. As I later found out they were aiming at the legs so they could have missed, but I guess they did it so they wouldnt hurt someone in such confined space.
If I wouldnt have called myself out, maybe next time they would be aiming for someone's face. So while I lost 2 minutes respawning I might have saved someone's tooth.
Getting hit is part of the game, people have to accept it more.
This also bring me to another point, whining after getting hit. Airsoft is about shooting eachother with plastic balls, you should expect to be shot and to feel some pain... if you cant take it, dont play.

Also, I have a feeling some people dont call their hits because they were "lucky", like thru really small hole or really far away. Cheating is cheating no matter how you try to think about it. Plus calling out these lucky shots would make the other person so much happier. Wouldnt you want to feel same way when you get some lucky kills?

as a player most of the time i just yell profanity and tell them if they got a good shot on me or a good position. haven't had an issue yet.
as a field owner and host i have seen some of this activity but thankfully not much. the worst case i have had yet is 2 individuals who were intentionally using my field photographer as cover and as a way to keep others from shooting back at them. if anyone knows the callsigns of said players i would really love to know since i wasn't told about this until well after the game.

+1 on commenting nice shot, it does happen to me too from time to time, and you just have to comment the person for the effort lol

The thing that really gets me though, is when people yell "call your fucking hit" when it REALLY doesn't need to be yelled, or spoken with anger. Especially when the person they're shooting at is actually out of their range lol
Granted, sometimes people are cheating on purpose and you have to unfortunately shoot them in the sensitive areas or yell at them. But it's even happened to me, where I was crawling through thick bush and got shot in the back by a sniper and just didn't notice it while crunching through deadfall. But, as a courteous player should, he simply called out to me and informed me in a calm fashion that I was hit, and I called myself out.

It's also happened to a really good guy I know who's played for years and years. I shot him in the arm while he was running and he just didn't notice, so I called his name, told him he was hit, and he called himself out.

i like the idea of calling your self out and approaching the other player who may not have called on his hit. i do however have a big issue with someone who obviously knows they got hit, doesn't call them selfs out, and when asked for their name and ASC handle, they tell you off and walk away.
how would someone deal with that? in a small game it wouldn't really be an issue, but in larger games these few supermen can get away with it easy. im sure that following the person in question around until you can reach game staff, could instigate a confrontation.
this is one of the reasons why i opted to get a head cam. at least the situation can be recored and posted on ASC, and would make avoiding a confrontation easier. the person can later be identified and dealt with for future games.
it would be nice if the Picton complex had some cameras to record the games. if anything, knowing that there are cameras watching would make these would be supermen think twice about trying to get out of taking their hits.

I find walking over to the player can cause that aggressive response. Even if an admin was on hand, often they do nothing. Not because they are lazy, but because constantly spanking players brings the game down. Also they have to be certain a player is cheating, but they do keep an eye when questions arise. They really don't like whining either. Everyone wants to get their voice heard out there. I agree with ThunderCactus though. Aim low, aim high, let them know you mean business. If you hit them once, you can hit them again. Close the distance and remind them of why you want to play honerably. Don't injure intentionally of course. A player should never do that.

Lest people misconstrue let me clarify...I don't think he meant to shoot me in the face...he was shooting through those little windows in the doors and I am sure regardless of what he said he was rattled by the grenade so aiming probably was problematic, what bothered me most was not the hit in the face but the entitled attitude of the little spud.

I had a situation where I shot a player who was crawling through the bush with a ghillie on. He didn't call hit, so I just kept shooting till he did. Took half a mag, on full auto, but he eventually felt the hits and called it.

One of the largest problems with people taking hits is caused by the shooter and not the person hit.

Many people will fire a couple of shots .. see them hit .. and then start yelling for the guy to "take his hit"

The guy may not have felt them.. these bbs weigh less than half a gram.. even a fold of fabric will catch the energy and stop a person from feeling it.

I have always promoted a "fire for effect" approach.. in that the target continues to receive fire until they acknowledge the hit. This has resulted in some guys getting mad for being "shot too much" but I don't care about that at all. When I shoot someone.. they get shot.. and they know it.

Usually I get this kind of response, "HIT HIT HIT.. OW Fuck the first 5 were good"

you can't trust one or two bbs to effectively transmit your intent into a target. Often it takes many more. Sometimes it takes too many.

but just like in real life .. some people are harder to kill than others.

Has any thought been given to increase the FPS limit from 400 to 450-475? We use to play in the 450+ range because everyone was always wearing full gear and never felt the hits until you were like 10 feet away.

each field owner/ host sets their own limits

I run at 350fps for indoor close quarters play at TTAC3, and I run at "less then 500 fps" for field play

350fps for close quaters makes sense. I know we use to get a little jumpy when we did CQB.

I know its really frustrating when you pepper someone in full auto and they don't call their hits but I can't imagine what it must be like being a sniper when you hit someone from far and watch them look around and go "meh I didnt see anyone"

I used to say 'toleration is a form of consent'.

Not sure why perspectives should be different now than what they were years ago in this community. Certainly you don't have to be best friends with everyone here but at the very least respect that they are a member of the same community you are a member of.

Ask yourself how you wish to be recognized - there's a huge wall of shame that is scattered about threads on this forum with redonkulous tales and unbelievable, disgisting lows that account the times of these individuals who essentially shit all over their own yard with their actions. Where are they now...

Alot of the bitching and arguing about FPS and calling hits - its been going on for 15+ years now. In a game comprised of volunteers at events on their free time in a *me* world where self direction is paramount, what are the chances that we all come to the game with the SAME positive attitudes? Yeah right I thought so.

...at least we have games to go to.

...at least we have a sport to enjoy with so many unique individuals.

...at least we can actually PURCHASE Airsoft which is considered 'Prohibited' by some accounts.

It's not a perfect community but damn it's something to be proud of all things considered. If you are not enjoying it, they ask yourself why. Perhaps go back to basics - do what it takes to get the enjoyment back.

I always played outdoor with either stock guns (280fps) or CQB guns (350fps) and never had a problem with range or people not feeling hits.
My sniper rifle shoot 450fps and with a good shot placement, never had a problem. The occasionnal mover in thick wood might not feel it, but even with a super hot gun, it would be the same.

I regularly play with people wearing body armor. It has no effect. They hear the hit if they don't feel it. I think the worst gear is cameback. In noisy environement, you might not feel or hear the hits. So shoot for the legs, arms or helmet.

The shooter still knows he got his kill. Even if the player pretends it did not happen.

My approach to this game is not competitive, for me it's about personal challenge. If I know I got a clean shot on a guy.. and he used the stimulus of getting shot by me to locate me and shoot back.. I know who got the better of that exchange, and I'm content that I achieved my goal.

I also know that that guy is reacting.. and it has not clicked with him that the reason he is feeling like he needs to turn and look to his left is because some .3g bbs are bouncing off his left arm.. He won't realize this.. until he turns and shoots back.
Then he will realize he was hit.. at about the second he sees his return shot hit me. He will see that I took the hit.. and he will think to himself.. Geez.. I think that guy got me first.. while he walks to the spawn.

We all get to respawn, and no one is really keeping score, and there are no cash prizes for "winning" so I see no need to bring my EGO to games.
I try to do my best, and I don't permit those with testosterone poisoning to ruin my fun..

Post this in every game thread. Epic.

That is probably one of the better perspectives. Start with yourself, and how you act. Be the bigger man, and set the example. However doing nothing about a problem isn't necessarily the answer. When your integrating a new player, or team member you get to watch them grow. So I suppose it depends on the examples you set, and that players original attitude. Some players you can see coming along and getting better. However you get players that just have a piss poor attitude and want to be the hero, or think they are above the honor system. Most teams I'd think at some point have had one of these individuals. The problem is he can bring the whole team down. I wouldn't want to bring a problem individual to an away game, and make my team look bad. And I'm sure all of us have seen teams that are all together unsportsmanlike. I'm not going to name any here, but I've witnessed how a guy who doesn't call hits, or has an unsportsmanlike attitude can spread it to his teammates. It all starts at home. There are a few instances where a player won't call their hits, but it's a pretty distinct sound off a gear hit. Not to mention you can hear the gun shooting at you from fairly far out in most cases. Not to mention the BB's that land around you can be heard. There really isn't any good excuse, seeing as the longer you play the more you can recognize the sounds automatically.

Claybank is a good example. In 2010 unfortunately most of the game rained out, at no fault of Camogames. But in the short play time of day one there were issues. I saw players fighting on the field, a plague of not calling hits, and general frustration. This year certain individuals were "uninvited", and even with 240ish players everything changed. Attitudes were better, sportsmanship was great, and everyone respected the other teams. I heard a lot off "nice shot!", or "good push guys". Camogames, and the admins did their job by doing something about it.

That doesn't work so well on a tightly limited ammo game!

Killing Ghillied Snipers
 

Is always an issue.. due to the fact that the Ghilly is a bb trap and the sniper never feels the hit..

This is how I think about it... I keep missing the Body.. and shooting through the Ghilly .. but not hitting the person..

you really have to zero in for the goggle shot when engaging snipers.

lol no cash for winning but there is Glory! And glory is forever. lol im just joking, but yeah thats a really good point, even though some people didn't call their hits, I still know to myself that my kill count went up one.

At a FR game years ago.. at the old FR field.. we were doing a straight up assault..

We came over the berm .. and bumped a group of players .. the dove for cover.. the one guy to my front was doing the "Paintballers Peek" you know .. the quick poke of the head out to take a look.

Every time he did I shot him right smack in the goggles ... this happened no less than 10 times.. until he tried to break cover and move... tripped over his own feet and dropped on his face exposed to the withering fire of about 6 guys who opened up on him full auto. He squirmed and wailed.. and crawled to cover.. only to start doing the "paintballer's Peek" all over again..it was so blatant as to be comical.

Eventually we advanced and someone shot him with a burst up close and personal like.. which he took. When questioned about all the other hits... his only answer was "no english"

Of course later he was overheard in the safe zone relating how he held off an assault single handed..until some asshole shot him too close.

related in Perfect English.

There are people like this out there... but regardless the way I looked at it was.. I got 11 kills

Sounds like you handled that situation well. Kept at it, and eventually advanced and did what you cam there to do. I have to chuckle at the close range burst. Lol, remind the guy to call his hits. I would have afterwords pointed him out though. It's not just a one shot deal. That blatancy of that instance tells me that this guy will continue doing it, to look like the hero. But most importantly your attitude about it was good. Kept your cool, and kept playing.

But every now and then, and back me up here guys. You bust your balls to hammer out an objective; like taking a structure. And the guys inside don't call their hits. So by the time you finally do capture it, their reinforcements have already arrived. When you should have owned that situation 15 minutes ago. So the jerks not playing honorably have single handedly altered the course of the game, and ruined your effort. This can be frustrating. It can't be okay to continually let them get away with it. Or it won't stop.

All this goes back to a concept I had for a website. A select number of approved and veteran hosts post games. Players sign up, pay for the game in advance online. When a game is complete, if there are any complaints to the host, they indicate it on the specific players record. This record is maintained in the system and creates a rating for a player. Hosts can then set the minimum player rating they are willing to accept for a game. It doesn't solve the issue with cheating players, but with enough complaints... Eventually, a player may find no games to play. Unfortunately it needs to be adopted by the community and not part of the community to work.

An interesting idea, but open to abuse as well. Players who just don't like each other, or other teams giving false ratings. But I'm sure there is a way to do it. Something like; only game moderators can apply a rating. I guess the main thing is that it's sad we have to think up things like this.

One other thing to bring up is experience.
I actually had something come up at claybank 2010 during the huge rainstorm. I charged up a hill with my 249, shot someone at the bottom of the hill, then shot a few guys on top. And anyone who owns a 249 knows you can't hear crap when your holding it right next to your face. Well it came up later that someone claimed they had shot me in the pouches from about 40 feet away or so.
Okay, so this person was close enough to know that his BB's were bouncing off my pouches in a 60mm rainstorm but for some reason didn't think of aiming at my legs. Not experienced enough to realize he's shooting a wet pouch on an armored plate carrier which makes almost no noise to begin with, on a guy who can't hear crap because he's firing off a 249, and looking in the other direction.
Any other airsofter with experience said they would have shot me in the legs, and I would have shot me in the legs too. And just in general, as an experienced airsofter, I would more often shoot someone in the legs rather than the plate carrier because I know they're going to FEEL it.
So of course I was upset that apparently I didn't call my hit on that, but said person also went on to accuse two high standing 8 year veterans of blatant cheating, was caught by one long time veteran of blatant cheating, and doesn't exactly have a clean rep in his own province either lol


However in contrary to this thread, I found the attitude at claybank 2011 to be REALLY improved by leaps and bounds compared to the last two years. Almost no complaining, minimal cheating, very few infractions given out. And all round a real good time.

That's why only complaints AT the game, TO the veteran host would be logged. Essentially, the veteran host has the final call.

Kind of like a coalition of game hosts. It wouldn't be a bad idea. But save yourself some work. A player that has a good attitude, or isn't really a problem doesn't even need a page. Might as well only flag the ones that have had a serious infraction. Or continual complaints against them. Keeping track of every airsoft player would be difficult, and why rate a guy that is average to great. But if someone gets flagged, you can then record; who, where, and for what. If they get flagged again, then they can be added to a open database or something like that.

As I said before, I thought Claybank 2011 was a huge success and went extremely well. Especially compared to previous years. I wouldn't take anything away from Camogames efforts in the past though. When you have near 300 attendees, there will be variables. And of course you can't predict how everyone is going to act. But it does provide tools to use for the next year. But I agree with ThunderCactus. One thing they implemented was the wrist bands. Every player had to have one on at all times. All admins carried a hole punch. If you had an infractio, you got punched. Three punches, and you were removed from the property. Very effective.

Warning, the below text mass wanders before finding its point and is a bit of a rant.

It's funny, at this point I find myself siding with arguments I was once vehemently against 5-6 years ago. I think it’s a combination of A) The forum, and B) players outlook on games.

When the forums were, well not new but perhaps younger the site really seemed to only be used for three things. Organizing games, the B/S/T and general discussion on the game (Think of the Options Paper days with KD). I think at that point there may not even have been an off topic section, but in any case the community was centered on the game and how to improve it.

If you wanted to socialize with someone, you generally met them at a game, hit it off and became friends from there. With this generation of the community we find many more people who connect through online persona rather than who they really are. As such they carry this behaviour over to the field (be it intentional to “fit in” or they view their forum-self as the character they play when they dress up to shoot people with plastic in the woods). This results in players behaving in the much more selfish, stand-offish, or even asshole way they do on the forums.

Don’t get me wrong, there certainly used to be rivalries and hatred spewed back and forth (Remember the old Wolfpack vs. ASC days?) However those differences were based between people who for the most part, knew each other in real life. As much as there was disagreement, there was also respect for the person as a player and as a person. It’s kind of hard to generally act like a douche to someone you play with or see once a month.

In addition to that Poncho and Scarecrow’s old adage of “toleration is a form of consent”. Hosts vary so much now, and players aren’t as bound to a specific field as they once were. (There used to always be a consistent Deadlands crew, FR crew, Splatters crew, etc. that you could count on showing up for a game at a given field, or any game hosted by a certain host.) This variance prevents hosts or even players who frequent specific fields and games from taking action against the offending parties. As people realize there is no real punishment for unsportsmanlike behaviour their own selfish need to feed their ego takes over.

I always suspected this is what a game organizer’s forum would be there for. As organizers or hosts receive complaints about a player, they would dump them in that section of the forum. If the concerns seem valid, that player no longer finds themselves welcome at games until they shape up. I distinctly remember this is how ASC used to operate, but somewhere the concept seems to have been lost in the shuffle.

The solution? Organizers/hosts may have to take a further step to pay attention to these kinds of complaints and bar people from attending their games. Players need to step up if this person shows up, and refuse to participate until they leave the field. Generally the community at large needs to put on its “big boy pants” and stop tolerating the assholes and game spoilers. Do you see a person in particular cheating? Even a whole team? Document it, speak to the hosts and DO SOMETHING.

/rant

I agree with this approach, and it is how I play. if you don't feel the first one, you might feel one of the later 350 rounds. It's not to hurt anyone, but as he said "some people are harder to kill than others" and I don't take the chance.

I don't mind getting hit by a 30 round burst, it's airsoft, your going to get shot, if you can't take it, leave. But I hate it when I've called my hit loudly 3 times, have my dead rag on, and people are still shooting me.

Did it... got it up and running .. and was constantly undermined by hosts who would simply not care about a players behavior and let banned players play.

Lots of them specifically catered to the players not welcome elsewhere...

I got tired.. handed off management of the forum to another..and it's gone nowhere.

Tolerance is part of the issue
 

Good read, we have dealt with the not calling hits, by the fire at centre of mass, if you see bb's hit and they do not call shoot them in the legs. Most people will feel that hit. Worst case walk to them ID, them and report them to the game organizer. To be dealt with by the game organizer.

BUT you must have seen the bb's actually hit the target.

How does that relate to tolerance, well back when our field had 12 players as a big game we were a little more tolerant and gave more time for bad behavior / attitude to be corrected.

Now averaging 50 to 60 players per game, we are actually less tolerant, we don't need giant egos and small dicks ruining the day for everyone. So one warning, a second issue then see you, in addition we report to the other local clubs. We make it very clear in the pre-game speech this is how it works.

Oddly enough the biggest trouble makers don't show up anymore.

But a demo for new and old players of the inherent lack of accuracy of the average AEG helps. We fire a 10 round burst a pie plate at mid range, in the clear taking all the time in world to aim. Then do the same with the plate in the brush doing a quick shoulder and burst.

The results sober up the guys who think they never miss. We have had a few cases where no rounds hit the plate the obscured plate.

Excellent post..

and the demonstration of the inherent inaccuracy of airsoft guns is a good idea.

Case in point... At the last game at PRZ.. I saw 3 guys chasing a 4th down the street.. the 4th guy was easily 2x the max effective range of their guns away.. the three stop chasing..( i guess they got tired) and each empty a mag at him.... and then get all Pissy because he did not "take the hit" .. They had no Idea than none of them were in range for any of their BBs to even reach him let alone hit him.

In their minds.. this guy just took 90 hits and kept going.

This is why I don't really like the outdoor game. CQB in a space that is less than 70 feet square eliminates the "out of range " issue

Civility is completely dependant on the maturity and self-control of the player. Has nothing to do with airsoft per se...that person probably behaves the same way with other things in other environments too.

I've seen the gamut of guys...from newbies to overly-seasoned vets display everything from impecable gentlemanly conduct to raging piss-offs. Not much rhyme or reason to it...it's either in the individual or not. Same goes for confronting an issue (calmly or not) or just "letting it go".

Sure...there are things that trigger guys. Due to airsofts way, way, way less than lethal inherent nature....getting a game where every shot flies true to its mark and every hit ='s an "OUT!" is likely just a pipe dream. Been at some games where it's really close....and it's sweet....

Great points here from several people. I've only really been into airsoft for a couple years so I can't speak on the history of this problem, but I have seen it in a few games I've been at. I know I want the games to play seriously and more realistically so if people are bending or breaking rules I can get frustrated. Maybe that's justified, but I have to take a few things into consideration. I am not everyone else and they might not notice what I notice. Also, maybe they are less "serious" players and more want to have fun rather than follow a series of strict rules (though that's still no excuse for going to an event with rules and breaking them). Hey, maybe I'm actually the one who's wrong and didn't see what I thought I did. People do cheat, but there's also a myriad of possibilities that could put them in the right.

As for the method of just shooting them till they call it, it's really the only way I can see to maturely deal with the situation in-game. If they're angry about being shot more than once then they should realize it's not the shooter's job to confirm the hit. If they don't want to be hit again they have to make sure it is obvious that they're out of suffer the consequences. I know I on occasion hesitate to call hit, not to cheat but just as a "dejected pause". This also prevents things from moving along as smoothly as they should and it's totally my fault if someone keeps shooting me till I yell "Hit!" with some sort of decent clarity.

I'm also not a fan of raising all the fps limits. For one the limits are generally there for safety reasons. Secondly, that creates a disadvantage for people using guns with lower velocities. Some builds legitimately work better (ex. hop-ups) at lower velocities. People can tell well enough if they were hit with the current limits as long as they are paying attention.

But I think in the end, come on, this is just a hobby. We aren't going to die or be seriously injured if someone bends rules. Players aren't losing anything measurable if hits aren't called. The amount of fun you get out of something is really up to you! If something isn't happening properly then a) deal with it calmly and maturely b) avoid the situation in the future, or c) don't let it bother you.

I'm sure I just regurgitated a lot that was already said, but there you have it in my words.

Reminds me of the story (I forget who posted it) of the kid with a stock bar-10 saying a kid maybe 150 yards away wasn't calling his hits...

Also reminds me of a video where you see a guy shooting at another guy (apparently) who isn't calling their hits, and he pulls out a real gun and starts shooting. Fake obviously, but I can't seem to find it...

I've been airsofting for just the summer, and have loved every moment of it. Now I wear amour in that my plate carrier as mock plates in it, but I've always tried to call my hits when ever I hear or feel them. I hope that in doing that other players do the same.

I myself have seen a round bounce of the ground and hit me so lightly that if I didn't see it, I wouldn't have known it hit me. I called my hit.

I've also had times where I am sure I've put enough rounds to hit someone. But my SCAR only shoots 310fps and honestly I wasn't 110 percent sure so I kept my yap shut (Being a new player doesn't give me allot of credibility either).

All and all even with a few 'non-callers' I've enjoyed my airsoft experience one of the main reasons I started playing was to look badass all in gear, the combat is sweet bonus to me. Honestly I've played all those video games you all seem to hate. But I understand they are video games and this is airsoft. One has graphics the other is real life.

I actually enjoy getting hit to an extent, if your not getting shot at your not in the thick of the fight!

Rounds that bounce off the ground and hit you don't count, just FYI.

I know, it was just I called it and was kinda like, didn't need to call that.... meh unlimited respawns and its only a short walk away...

To the first part...raising FPS limits with "known guys" is no issue at all. Typically the shot making and shot taking is so much clearer and distinctive that it's never an issue. Adding 50fps sucks ass in CQB, completely not necessary, but it opens up a whole new game (not that the guys in Alberta, etc...haven't been doing it for a long time already).

To the second part...A LOT of guys invest a lot of time, money and energy into every game they participate in. Some games have months of lead up time, dozens of volunteers and complicated logistics (and that may be just to find a babysitter :)). EVERY player stepping onto the field at ANY game has (and should have) an expectation that everyone else will be holding themselves to the highest levels of game play...since AS is an honour based game. And in return, every other player on the field expects the same in return. Once that is compromised...it's a shit show.


Cobalt...that's exactly the judgement that's needed on the field. When guys switch their brains off and say, "look, I was hiding behind this indestructable leaf so you couldn't hit me"...it's never does anything good for the game play.

I'm certainly not perfect. I'm missed taking uber light hits from snipers...I've lain in a shallow depression and had rounds land all around me and not called it...etc... No one is perfect, but all you can do is keep your brain working and learn to do better.

I've also gotten hit on the side of the boot from what was probably a bounce...but since I couldn't tell for sure, I called out. I've also had someone get the stone cold drop on me...only to rip off a string of misses/miss-feeds...and called out. What's better for the game...someone working the bush for 30min to get someone dead to rights (it was a sweet move on his part), or for me to call the "hit" and go and take a 10min respawn?

Same with "grenades" and 40mm's...a switched on brain is the only thing that really makes it a really good game, otherwise we might as well strap on a 6 pack of hicaps and just hose down the area until it's a carpet of BBs.

^This +1. Unfortunately has happened once at each of the past three games I was at. I am however, also guilty of not immediately finding out who it was and why they felt that was necessary and then whining about it later. That will change for the future.

Thanks for the thread and the reminders on proper sportsmanlike play.

I think I'm going to approach EAR about having a training day not just for my team, but an open one for folks new to the sport so they learn some of these fundamentals early.

Well im new to the game this year, i have a private field that i run games on for friends and special invites (friends of friends, etc.) and really havent encountered this. Although playing in a setting where everyone knows everyone, and will probably be going to hang out together later kinda forces the honesty. No one wants to be "that dick head" later on. I have however had a few shots like everyone has said above, where you are not sure if you got hit, did a stick whipped your gear as u are running? etc. Personally if i have thoughts i got hit i'll call it, I hate to call it but i do, if you dont whats the point in playing?? (hell sometime the excuse to go to the safe area for a drink or a snack is welcome) I mean what challange is there if you can just walk along and not be eliminated??
Im guessing these are the same people who beat a video game with a code then tell people how good the are...

I get a chuckle hearing trash talking from the OPFOR. But there is a line.

I have a problem with teammates whining and crying about the other team. At Rhino, I saw some 'funny' things. Nothing bothered me, with exception to my teammates reactions to those events.

Remember that everyone is out to have fun. If you are not having fun, think of the rest of the team.

Solution for those that know they are good at getting kills but experience these situations..... wear a head cam!

Nothing like capturing a kill on video. The cam is your only witness.

a little excessive dont you think?? honour doesnt cost a thing, only actions....

I think its a great idea, just expensive. Nothing says caught like being on camera. But I mean as Brian said sometimes people don't feel it, give them a couple more shots and if they don't call it take it up with them and if it becomes problematic take it up with Game Control.

EDIT: To add to my post I can this become an issue for outdoor winter games as players layer up on gear to keep warm.

Hmm...

You can pick up this Tachyon mini cam for $99 (http://tachyonxc.ca/tachyonca-ops.html) that is made for paintball and airsoft.

http://youtu.be/ZCwOI6YXib8

http://youtu.be/qz1UrW8BX88

Expensive?? It depends on your priority on airsoft accessories. I know of guys that spend $30 for a fake PRC-148 or $300 for a working FRS PRC-148 just for realism.

You spend so much on your guns and loadout and go out to play and come back with no video to show all the fun to your family and friends.

Sorry for being off topic.

After finally getting around to reading this thread. It reminded me of a game I had at my private field back in the early summer. I wasn't feeling like playing much so I was just standing on one of the sniper towers watching. Well there was a little confusion between a few of the players over someone not calling hits. Some yelling started and the game stopped. I yelled out "No Duff" for the game to stop completely so that I could get over to were the problem was taking place, and sort things out. By the time I got over to the players that were arguing, they were shaking hands and apologizing to each other. The level of sportsmanship that these players displayed was awesome to see. So in the end it all comes down to maturity of the players. I have banned a few players from my games for being immature and not taking the game seriously. I hate doing that, but the players that come out to my games have spent lots of time and money of the kits they wear and the guns they use, And I won't tolerate the players who continue to ruin the day for the other players.

Is it sad if this felt like the description of society in general?

you know what's worst than zombies? whiners.