Teflon is less hazardous to the enviorment than bio bbs that aren't completely biodegradeable, as you said, it doesn't biodegrade, but it doesn't poison the enviorment either, I still recommend picking the bullets up on sight (after you get shot by them maybe), and maybe we can make a discount :) (sadly thermoset plastics can't be re-used)
Still, the amount of sniper shots on a field can't even get close to the amount of BBs shot, the amount of pollution you add to your enviorment just by using plastic bags is a lot more than using teflon pellets.
Though, if these were bbs that are shot by aeg, it could become a problem by filling up the field.

LOL...excellent point. Teflon dosen't break down at all, period. So there is no "leakage" of the PCPs (or what ever) into the enviroment.
The other point is also valid....BA snipers do tend to utilize a hell of a lot LESS ammo than AEG operators. Typically, I will go through roughly no more than 50 shots in 7 hours (of scrims or mil sim games), mainly due to the limited enguagements and superior accuracy of a bolt action.

I'll be looking forward to seeing some test results of your prototype, to see how things work out.
In Canada, we are restricted to 5.7 joules before it is considered a fire arm, so I'm hoping the numbers work out to to be compairable at the lower fps, cause I really don't want to run the risk of injurying anyone to reap the potential benifits of your design.

Good luck;
SHA DO

Am I the only one that thinks it's gonna REALLY suck getting shot by a pointed anything other than a round surface at 450 FPS +?

Edit: I must be a shitty sniper lol.. I go through atleast 300 rounds in a simple scrim... But.... My play style is more of a "Run and gun" I go to my enemy instead of waiting for them to come to me.

Check out page 5. unless the wind turns it or it tumbles it will hit round tip first.

The front of the bullet is rounded off, it will probably end up being the same surface area on impact than that of a BB.

Ah okay! I didn't know what they looked like!

I thought they had a pointed end lol

I think the biggest issue here is how to get these to feed into a gun properly

They will require a complete new gun desing IMO.

A one shot BA rifle, or a super custom, mag fed BA.

I'd go with a sigle load one shot BA. Like the big .50 cal the Navy Seals used to have.

Hmmmm....I wouldn't say that I camp (let the enemy come to me), but rather take some out at long range (375 feet plus), then let them look for me (if they have a clue). Fall back, flank, reinsert, collect some more kills, repeat.

What you are describing is what I do during scrims, sharp shooting (ie, a designated marksman's role), where I tend to be fall back to a safe MED then get as many "one shot - one kill"s as possible before having to draw my pistol.

SHA DO

how fast does your gun have to go in order to snipe at 375 feet?

That all depends on the weight of BB being used. ** note; we set our limits to 400 fps using 0.20 weight BBs for AEGs, 450 fps using 0.20 for BAs, and sometimes 500 fps using 0.20 for experienced (senior) BA operators. I have gotten consistant kills at 375 feet using a 500 fps (chronied with 0.20s) BA using 0.30 weight BBs.

Hope this chart is helpful;

SHA DO

375 feet?

that's 113 metres man, does the BB even fly that far? I mean holy shit

I've said it before - anyone with a Tanaka gas boltie will love these as single loaded rounds. The ability to open the bolt and place an AP directly into the chamber means no need for redesigned mags (you just have to squeeze it through the feed lips).

Also, if you release a VSR kit first, Tanaka users also get the benefit of the VSR hop kit.

hop kit = hop up? If so what is the point of hop upvon a BJ that doesn't spin end over end?

Preciously, these rounds would need something more like the Tanio-Kobia twist inner barrel to get a rolling spin rather than a back spin.


I'm slowly loosing the interest in this whole idea because it simply has too many factors against it.

One. A pointed round is going to penitrate deeper into its target, this will mean increased MED's so that people don't have a "sniper bullet" sticking out their skin.

Two. Magazines will have to be redesigned, adding to cost of the set up.

Three. Hop ups will have to be turned off so not to create back spin.

Four. Some sort of rifling in the barrel would be needed to create the right spin to the round for it to fly straight. Go try throwing a foot ball with a back spin and see how far it goes.

Five. Could possibly create another huge muck at the Chrony, already sniper rifles have some issue being "controlled" because of the allowances to higher FPS. Add in that this is a new round that operates on different principals and designs that could really add to trouble finding the rifle FPS limits for different fields and so on.

Six. Why do we need an AP round? What happens when many of you buy into it and then the AP round flops and no one makes it anymore? You're stuck with mags and what ever rounds you have left :P. The BB industry has already cut its niche in the market.

Oh but you mentioned about so many stuff that was discussed hehe

Kits will come with a rifled barrel, made by us.

Rounds aren't pointed, you can see them here.


Designing isn't a real problem since this is my job, the original magazines for vsr-10 was about 20$, our magazines won't be too over that.

Again, our barrels won't have a hop-up, instead their end will be shaped like a hop-up since hop-ups prevent the barrel from wobbling inside the hop-up mechanism (which will be only used to hold the barrel in it's old place).


It's not the FPS that gets limited, it's the energy levels, with a really small calculation, the limit for a 0.4g bullet can be set, without needing to fire a 0.2g bullet. Sure the bullet's design effects the damage on the target, but teflon is a soft plastic (much much softer than the regular BBs) so it will defom on impact, this won't mean anything on your skin though, it will hurt the same, but goggles will be safe. So as long as the energy output of the barrel is controlled, you should be okay.

The hop up isn't the important bit to have. The important thing is that the hop up kit allows a VSR INNER BARREL to be mounted in a Tanaka.

Rifled VSR barrel in a Tanaka, more precisely. No mag mods needed :)

This whole thing is sounding really cool and is making me not want to sell me UTG L96.

Maybe I can get a mod kit for that later on down the road (a lot of people have WELL and UTG L96's) and shoot those things after some tinkering with the barrel and hop up unit.

Maybe something like a same sized barrel with a small slot that will fall in the right position... idk.

Either way, the UTG shoots 450 so this should mean some high distances and increased accuracy with a threaded tightbore designed for this ammunition. I would go nuts if I can hit someone 300 or 350 ft away. :DD

Apparently the Firearms Act/ Department of Justice Canada didn't care. They treated the .43 paintball mag as thought it held real ammunition.

Better safe than sorry?

tunabreath just gave me a thought hehe, it should be easy to produce custom lenght barrels once you start producing barrels, they aren't exactly mass produced, it's hard to change the inner diameter, but the lenght should be possible to change easily.
Hmm, would you people want custom lenght barrels? If there are rifles that allow bullets to be loaded one by one, we should look into this.

I think you'd have to make a full mod kit as I don't know of any rifles you can load single BB's into one at a time.

This is sounding really cool and I'd probably be one of the first to purchase (once I get some money). Even if it flops (which it doesn't seem like it will with all the R&D you're putting into this) I'm sure it would be a great piece of airsoft history.

Don't get your hopes up already. The UTG is a cheap clone of a sniper rifle and you probably won't hit anything past 150-200fts if you keep it that way.

In order to hit your target at 300fts and beyond, you need a finely tuned rifle AND shooter.

From experience, this new AP round and barrel won't extend the range of fire, but will increase the precision. In open terrain, with no wind, I enticipate acurate fire up to 150fts. (By acurate, I mean hitting consistently something not bigger than a human torso). I'm being very conservative now.

The benefits I see for this AP round is that it will allow us to shoot what we see in place where our FOV is cluthered with branches. Since the trajectory will be "ballistic" and not influenced by a hopup, it will be easyer to judge distance and compensate with a hold over without having to compensate for the BB flightpath also. (Hopup make BB fly up and down and up gain than down, wich require hold over or hold under at some distances wich is counter intuitive for shooters.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Styrak
That doesn't mean anything. They don't hold real ammunition.

Anyone with a real engineering degree or measurable IQ for that matter understands a paintball magazine will not feed real ammunition under any circumstance but we are talking about the government here, and they don't have a real education. They study to become professional actors and salespeople. And you would never believe how many people in power with titles or engineering companies cannot even read a schematic.

So whats the end of the story? This is very interesting. What happened, the thread just died 2 weeks ago.

really whats going on with this?

It didn't die, We fired a few bullets with no problem but there was a mistake in the last CNC order batch so the bullets weren't at the correct dimension, we will get another batch produced and i will upgrade my VSR-10, we also got a few machinery to our workshop so we will probly produce our own sears for the kits.
Whenever we have spare budget, we get on this topic.
I should take pictures of the last bullet actually.

As I've already stated, Tanaka bolties allow you to do this.
I'm really looking forward to these. We'll have to come up with new mass/velocity/energy limits for airsoft 'SASRs' though.

I think we decided on the name "APs" hehe

LOL....my APS is shooting APs!!!??!
Can't wait to see what happens with the result of your ballistic tests.

SHA DO

I know, I'm referring to any airsoft guns using APs as SASRs (usually anti-material rifles, eg, Barrett M107 SASR/Special Application Scoped Rifle) :p

just found this thread but i think some people are overthinking this abit to much in terms of the shorter range. Im just finishing my college technolidgy physics course and if im not mistaken the bullet will have a longer flight path than a normal bb. Why well a few aspects of bernolies principal. first the shape of a bullet is a basic airfoil that forces the air around the bullet to accelerate loweringing the relative airpressure creating lift witch would increas flight time. And the little ridges would create a little bubble of turbulant air (Eddies) that would lower the liniear drag of the bullet to the friction coeficent of air on air witch is somthing like 1.0x10^-3 or .oo1 for those who don't understand witch is all but negligable. so if im corect that would mean improved flight. so this is my overthinking.

Have you ever fired a pellet airgun and compared with a hopup AEG?
The difference in range is very large. Hopup really add more than twice the range in general.

The pellet sprin don't add lift, just reduced drag.

The AP bullet will allow faster flight (less wind deviation) and a more stable ballistic drop (more acuracy, more predictable shot)
Theoretically, that would make the AP bullet a trade off for range to acuracy and a very desirable projectile in some situations, like in dence woods.

In that case, would you need an increase in fps to maintain distance? Or would there be no way to keep the normal distance AND get the accuracy?

Aim higher?

you'll have to aim A LOT higher to achieve the same range a BB has when hopped.

And rifling the barrel won't replace hop-up. all it does is stabilize the projectile, not add lift to it.

I doubt this pellet will have nearly as much range as a hopped BB, even though it may fly faster (by being less effected by drag, if this shape actually does that...)

and on another note- if this pellet really does create less drag and looses less energy along its flight, we will have to reconsider the safety range!
as of today snipers with 500 FPS can only shoot at people 30 meters and over (where I play) because at these ranges the BB lost enough energy and dosn't do much damage.
What if these pellets dont loose energy? if at 30 meters its still carrying 3 jouls then the MED should be increased!
add that to the fact that without hop-up it won't even get that far and your left with this:

a projectile that has no range, but can hurt people.
epic fail.

Well if this thing holds the group together (accuracy) I really don't care if I have to aim higher.Just need to put a range card together ,just like RS.Gravity sucks,that's all there is to it. Even a 3.08 175 gr sighted for 200 needs approx 31 min of angle(depending on load) to reach a 1000.Sniping is not that easy at distance,but if the bb is accurate ,that's over1/2 the battle, just have to learn your come ups :D

By the way, I finially got my forums working.
http://int.hsairsoft.com
You can get an account if you wish, responds will be quicker and my friend that is designing the bullet can answer your questions personally.

Happy new year everyone!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...DSC_328122.jpg

Yes they are pointy, no they won't stay pointy.

They almost look like pellets for airguns but with 2 skirts overlapping.

Am I the only one who thinks that the tip of the bullet kinda looks like titties???

Looks pretty good but I'm thinking that why couldn't you have built something from scratch and make it a drop in kit or something. Like a total redesign from the ground up rather than taking the current build and modifying certain parts? Would the "from scratch" build cost more in R&D vs. the "modify certain parts" path?

Are you doing preliminary testing yet? I'd like to see a grouping at different ranges. Would it be possible to modify the bullets to something heavier though? .12 seems kinda light in my mind I know it's already been discussed to hell and back though so whatever your R&D finds is the magic formula is fine. Maybe a .15 or .18 version?

I agree. Airsoft pron at it's best.

Looks like this has come a long way from the first page.

Looking good bro.....any luck with any ballistic testing at ranges yet??

SHA DO

no more news/updates on this?

any body ever try these in an airsoft gun? RAP4 has 6mm fin stabalized bbs.
http://www.rap4.com/paintball/os/rap...00-p-2943.html
Looks really low quality hhahaa

cant wait to see these AP bbs come out. any updates?

their website is giving errors : /

I want to see some updates too - vrey promising proudct.

I have a feeling the bb drop will be disappointing:( I know they will have a much better flight path than a bb with no hop. But have you seriously ever shot a gun with no hop up/ hop up turned off? If look like there is hop up forcing it down.

I hope you can get atleast a good 150feet with this product without having your barrel at a 45 degree angle facing the sky.

6mm Ballistic Funbags................ yes.

Pure shit: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forum...8722&hl=airfin

The difference with these is that there are no "fins", and the indents that circle the circumferance of the shaft will generate lift, but at what cost to the FPS?? I'm still waiting to see what "at range" ballistic readings will be with the gun equivantly set up to crony 0.20 weight BBs.
I haven't given up hope on this just yet.

SHA DO

the link didnt work for me,

that being said i think its pretty obvious those rap4s are horrible!;)

i read on an airsoft sniper forum that when you shoot over like 300fps they lose there flight stability and tumble.

still worried about flight distance on these APs.
Anyone care to drop science on me? As of now i fullheartedly believe range (or lack there of) will kill this product. I imagine we have enough to come up with atleast a rough estimation.


bb weight: .18
fps: 450

what angle would the muzzle be to the ground to get lets say 150 foot range?

If i actually payed attention in physics i would know how to calculate this!

forgive my unscientific noobness, but how does an indent on all sides cause lift. if its on all sides, it would be producing the same force down, as up, nullifying the 'lift'... unless its antigravity!

haha those finned bb's looked like a bag full of mini-holy grenades from worms =P

hhahah yeah they do. God i miss that game

hehe that was a good game...it really amazed me and frustrated me when the computer would get these impossible shots!!

but seriously...no more updates on these sniper boobies...i mean, bb's?

What do you mean was? I still play WWP regularly with my friends :p

Anyways, yeah, nothing new so far. His forum is back up though:
http://tr.hsairsoft.com/viewtopic.php?lang=en&f=7&t=3

Yes, any outward forces that could be generated will be axial and in actuality provide no lift. The ridges will effectively and exponentially create turbulence and drag, thus slowing the projectile. I have a concern of the projectile tumbling at long range while decelerating but that may not be that case; that may have been factored into it's design.

I still can't see it working very well for longer range shots, lift and drag factored in, as far as the aerodynamics goes, ridged boat tail spun via rifling vs. a heavy BB with a backspin. The light weight will be prone to air currents regardless of the design, and the low velocities the 'bullet' will be shot.......... be lucky to get a decent 150ft out of it on a man sized target. There will be no lift generated, but there will be some drag reduction based upon the boat tail, but anything shot out of an airsoft gun, regardless of the velocity, will lose velocity very quickly in a short distance.

I see a good application for them, and that would be in wooded area where a nice ballistic, stable curve is desirable to shoot in between brushs.

If it can reach 150fts, it will be more than plenty. And the light weight the prototype are, would allow more fps and still be safe.

Problem is, in the woods is where the air currents are most unstable, so a lightweight BB such as the 0.18g or whatever they are.............. would likely be very unusable unless indoors at ranges less than 100ft and only with a lower powered sniper rifle. Higher fps will cause BBs and those things to become more unstable, as has been proven by my tests (with BBs, not those). I can't really see a use for them unless they are made heavier, and the ballistic coefficient must be brutal with that length vs. weight. Add in only breech loading gas powered guns being able to use them single shot.......... ugh.

Since they don't spin like a BB and are more like a bullet, higher fps will give them more lateral spin and they will behave more like a real bullet.

Like a pellet gun, I assume they will be acurate like one.

I wonder how the wind will effect them, more likely more than a normal BB.

Only test will say definatly.

What's the weight of a .177 lead pellet?

depends on manufacturer, between 5-10 grains.

I wonder if you used a tanio koba twist barrel if you could impart some rifling sping on this projectile?

I agree that in my mind these should be heavier, but not seeing them yet, it may be short sighted on my part.

5-10 grains... that's about .18g to .20g I think.

My pellet rifle that shoot about 450fps with .117 pellet have a usable range of about 250fts.

That does not make any sense... But that's what was on the chrony.

Anyway, I can shoot small birds at that distance pretty consistently.

A lead pellet actually sits around what a 0.43g BB will be at, so rethink it all. This type of BB will behave like a short Q-tip at higher velocities with that weight used.

6.5 grains = 0.421192915 grams

1gramme=14,43236grains
right?
I had other data on other websites..

I typed in the google search engine "6.5grains = grams" or something like that and it spat out 0.42g.

1 gram = 15.432358353 grains
6.5 grains = 0.421192915 grams

http://www.unitconversion.org/

The grain science look inconsistent. I saw so many different values...

Just stick to the important measurements.... 1lb is 16oz....1oz is 28 grams.... XD

Okay, well if you have your muzzle completely horizontal, you're looking at 275FPS for a BB to go 150 ft if your muzzle is 58 inches off the ground.

For basic computations without getting into the complexities of Drag (unless you plan on borrowing the NRC windtunnel to get your drag coefficient), weight doesn't apply, as it's an "external force". Find any online ballistic calculator and put in 5g and compare that to the answer you get with 150g. Same results.

Basically, you're dealing with horizontal velocity, gravitation acceleration, distance and height.

I threw in Fox's BB Gun velocity into my calc and show a distance of 246.62 feet (that's for a horizontal shot with a 58" gun height).

For our purposes, BB weight is mainly going to affect stability and how it punches through foliage.. and how big of a noise it makes when it hits the wall of a CQB house :)

Here for some math:
http://www.grc.nasa.gov/WWW/K-12/air...ballflght.html

You know, I've actually thought about heading over there and setting up a little model of a spinning BB and getting some aerodynamic footage at various air speeds. Maybe someday. Lol

Lemme know when you do that I wanna ride my bike in the windtunnel for some tests :)

Lol, that'd be the 9m windtunnel (we actually have four or five windtunnels, two are at Uplands.) Ya actually, we used to do a lot of NASCAR testing at the 9m one.

http://img3.hostingpics.net/thumbs/m...4okexemple.jpg

Im work on that pass time maybe 6 mouth and is better im make..... On bed whit this ammunition im cover easy 200 ft at 400 fps whit really good precision....

But whit bb and tubular form i think is really better im suprise that do not exist in market.....

If you take tubular bb whit twisted barrel you make really different airsoft....
But airsoft club can accept this special bb ?

That looks like gum balls and drugs to me.

Uppers and downers, thats one crazy airsoft game!

For small scale tests, the mythbusters made an homemade windtunnel with a Fan and packs of Straw. Sadly I do not have any link.

The most aerodynamic shape is the teardrop. If you implement this is any way I want 15%.

does a lower drag coefficient mean more stability?
Does it??

Yes. There's a reason footballs are teardrop shaped.

I had meant specifically for BBs, since spherical BBs with back spin seem to have out lasted the finned BBs? XD

It would probably make a difference.. the problem with teardropping a BB is that it's have to be somewhat larger to be equal weight. Backspin is a very simple and echonomic way of doing it that's "good enough."

yeah, true true, but atleast backspin delays the rate of drop in height, where as that would be subject to a normal ballistic drop rate.
I can't really say much beyond that since I don't own a gun which uses stabilizing fin BBs DX

I'm fairly certain that the primary reason airsoft BBs are spherical is because it's
a) the most inexpensive shape to produce with acceptable finish tolerances
b) easier to design a working feed mechanism and higher capacity magazines for any kind of automatic or otherwise self loading gun (because a sphere can be fed and fired in any direction)

It has little if anything to do with actual performance, and neither of those factors are a priority when looking at high precision setups like target shooting and sniper platforms.
If cost were a major issue, I imagine fewer snipers would be buying Maruzen SGMs. Likewise, feeding is not as much of an issue for much simpler manually operated designs.

Look at air rifles. Plinkers, blowbacks, and self loaders tend to fire .177 BBs because they're much easier to load/feed. Most target rifles fire .177 pellets instead, because they're more stable in flight.

That said, fin stabilized projectiles for airsoft are a terrible, terrible idea. Look at those RAP4 ones. They simply suck. It's because maintaining tight tolerances on such a complex shape is extremely difficult on such a small scale over such large quantities.

Far better would be the common 'bullet' shape. There's a reason real rifles fire them. Or even conical/minie ball style projectiles, like air rifle pellets. The flared end keeps the projectile stable in the same way fins would (as well as providing a smaller contact surface with the barrel to grip the rifling better), only with a much simpler and more easily manufactured shape. It really depends on whether range or stability are greater factors after testing whether a boat-tailed/teardrop shape or a flared/conical shape is better.

The main problem I can see with a PURE football/teardrop is that it's difficult to seat it in the chamber the same way every time. It needs some kind of cylindrical or two point shape to seat, however the ends are shaped.

You've hit upon an important point even if you didn't spell it out - the pellet/bullet shape is only really stabilized when the projectile is spinning (like, rifled-barrel spinning).

Smoothbore barrels and spherical ammo really is the sweet spot complexity and performance-wise for airsoft guns (power users aside, airsoft was and largely still is plastic toy guns firing lightweight ammo at low velocities for use at short ranges.)

You know all snipers would curse those 'bullet' just because of feed problems even if it worked decent!

Why would it feed badly? A drastic change wouldn't really be needed especially for sniper mags who wouldn't need a large capacity mag and therefore wouldn't need any turns in the feeding. An elongated chamber(I want to say hop up but it wouldn't work) and obviously a longer Nozzle to go with the longer chamber.

I realize that's seems like alot but what I meant is that it wouldn't need a completely new system.

Heres what I was thinking chamber/hop-up wise. I don't have any bolt actions though so I dunno if a similar approach could be taken.

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/5685/invision.jpg

This ofcourse assumes that it would be cylindrical.

Most of these ideas probably aren't useful unless you use a rifled barrel anyway, because you would need the rifling in order to balance out imperfections in the projectile (teardrop, fin, pellet, bullet, etc.) as it goes through the air. A bb with backspin probably is the best solution in these cases. There's just not enough mass or power behind it at airsoft velocities to gain any appreciable advantage.

Hello
Sorry for lack of responds,
My partner went missing two days ago, I suspect he won't come back any sooner, I'm currently trying to find the AP prototypes and their drafts which might be left in our (now shut down) shooting range, and going to continue the project myself with the help of mechanical engineers at my university. I really hope I can find the prototypes.
Sorry it went like this.

Damn, that's not good... I hope you can continue moving forward with this. Best of luck to you Auhydride.

i'm not certain if this has been proposed yet, but for feeding, why not a real steel type mag. like a pistol mag. as before mentioned, there is no reason for these bbs to have to feed through a high cap mag. that way the orientation of the bb is assured

Yea I didn't even think of high-caps. beside if it's for snipers it' won't matter anyways. There's no snipers running around with tactical maraca's I'm sure.

Decided to post updates here as things progress, if you people don't mind, and because it's like it's off a movie.
Found the plans of the old prototype (the white one) but the newer black ones doesn't seem to be have anything on paper.

I'm sure 90% of you have seen these already, but...

I don't know too too much about airsoft, I'm more into paintball, but you may want to have a look at this. Tiberius Arms (paintball company) just came out with the first effective sniper round for paintball (the Tiberius First Strike) not long ago. I've watched alot of test videos, read alot of reviews, etc. and it looks pretty impressive. I haven't got my hands on any first strike paintballs myself, though.

http://www.skirmantas.com/wp-content...s/img_5941.jpg

They use the same type of shape as what's posted on the first page here (to a certain degree).

Check it out: Tiberius Arms

Heh, they kind of look like rifled shotgun slugs.

Wow that got me thinking this could work out even better than I hoped (ignore my doughts, curse them) if it could be put to market. I'm sure the international community would be receptive!

any updates on this

Hello,
I have posted something about the APs onto my forum.
You can read it here.

I will quote it here :)

O.O Jeebus...

Hope your friend pulls through okay.

I'm glad he's ok now.

Let us know when your project restart. I'm still very curious about the possible outcomes of it.